Speaker 2: 0:19

Welcome Measures. The kick bends it back goal. Welcome back to Finance Friends, your personal seat at the table with leaders shaping the financial world. In this exclusive season, we meet with high profile, incredibly successful athletes who achieve the greatest heights on the sports field and are now dominating the finance world. What a pleasure it was to have Andy Gowers, who's the current president of the Hawthorne Football Club, also the founder of Vest Advisory. He shares his experience being a premiership player at Hawthorne to move into the Brisbane Bears, which became the Brisbane Lions, and his transition from being a footballer, which was semi-professional at that time, to becoming a financial advisor and leading clients through the GFC, when they weren't very happy with the investments, to becoming a successful business owner and now a leader of one of the biggest AFL clubs, if not the biggest the Hawthorne Football Club. Listen to his journey and the advice he has for existing AFL players.

Speaker 2: 1:32

Welcome, andy, to the podcast. How are you today? I'm great Thanks, Fabian, good to be here. Well, it's good to have you here on the eve of a long weekend, so you're quite unique in your situation. Well, you were an ex-professional football player, so maybe talk to us about your journey of how did you end up becoming a professional footballer.

Speaker 1: 1:55

Well, it wasn't looking likely in Year 11 at school because I was picked in the fifth A team in the open age group and had to work my way up through the ranks. I'd always been in the A team and then the sports master, who was also the first A team coach, actually picked me in the fifths, which was a bit of a needle, and I think he wanted me to work for it if I was really determined enough. But I didn't play any first A team football in year 11. It was only in my year 12 that I played first 18 football and even then I wasn't a guaranteed VFL player at that stage because it was still called the VFL. This is the late 80s.

Speaker 1: 2:36

But I repeated year 12 because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do and I was young as well, and it was that year that I played good enough footy that I knew I was going into the VFL and got put on the list by Hawthorne. There were bigger lists in those days and they had a spare spot. They put me on the list and then next thing I knew I was playing with the Hawthorne Football Club in a very successful era. So my first four years at the club we won three premierships. I played in one of those, but it was very, very exciting.

Speaker 2: 3:09

Yeah, so is it a bit different to what it is today, where you get drafted and there was a list? Or did you get drafted too. No, I didn't get drafted.

Speaker 1: 3:18

At that stage it was a hybrid system, so you could get drafted or you could be put on the list and there were various things like I mean, I could have gone to Richmond under the father-son rule. My father played for Richmond Trevor Gowers, so he'd qualified. He'd played enough games to qualify me to play there, so that was an option. But Hawthorne actually listed me so they were able to put me on their list, I think that was because I lived in the area.

Speaker 1: 3:43

So it was like a local rule and also in those days clubs had first dibs on certain areas. So Hawthorne, for example, had a recruiting area in Gippsland and so they had first right to recruit players from there. And we recruited a number of very well-known players like Michael Tuck, peter Knights, et cetera, out of Gippsland Gary Ayres is another one because they had first right to players in that region. But yeah, I was just put on the list and that gave me a choice between two clubs Richmond, where my dad had played, hawthorne, where I was listed. And I've described it as a heart versus head the heart said Richmond and the head said Hawthorne and I went with the head and it was a very good decision. At the time I was only a young, immature 18-year-old, but it worked out very well, so in your first three years did Hawthorne win?

Speaker 2: 4:35

the First four years we won three premierships, yeah, and you played in the last one. Is that correct? That's right, 1991. And how did you feel like playing with the greats of the competition at that time? Did you feel accepted from day one or did you feel you needed to work to get to that point? Look, both.

Speaker 1: 4:53

I needed to prove myself and I trained very hard in those days. The term they use now is the one wood. What's your standout feature of your game? And for me it was running. I was a good runner, good middle distance and long distance runner and I did a lot of running, not just in training, but I would do extra running outside of training. So my first pre-season at Hawthorne, every second day I ran 10 kilometers on my own outside of my training regime with the club. So I was super fit, very skinny but super fit, so I could keep up, or more than keep up, with the more senior players.

Speaker 1: 5:34

And in football, as strange as this may seem, if you're able to compete athletically leaving the footies out of it and during pre-season you do a lot of running leaving the footies out of it and during pre-season you do a lot of running You're part of the bunch.

Speaker 1: 5:51

If you're doing well on the running track and I did well in the running and that really helped me with my confidence and so on. But in terms of walking into the club as a nobody 18-year-old, all the senior players had individually come up and introduced themselves to me and I won't rattle off every name, but I had the likes of John Platton, gary Ayres, dermot Brereton, chris Mew, michael Tuck, darren Pritchard, come up to me and say, hello, my name's Dermot Brereton. And I literally felt like saying to every single one of them you don't need to tell me who you are, I know who you are, you're a household name and I'd say I'm Andy Gowes and you know welcome down. So great to have you here. We're so wrapped up. You know, be a teammate and couldn't have been more welcomed, but in a different way than now. You know, now it's a text message from your teammates. It might be a FaceTime or something text message from your teammates.

Speaker 2: 6:45

It might be, a.

Speaker 1: 6:46

FaceTime or something who knows they might add you on.

Speaker 2: 6:47

Instagram and message you on Instagram or tag you in.

Speaker 1: 6:48

TikTok, friend me, de-friend me but in those days it was pre-season, started the second Monday in January and so I walked in with my training bag. I lived around the corner, I walked to training, in through the door and then I'm just enveloped with people who are welcoming me to my new club. And it was all new to me and very exciting. I'd always wanted to be a footballer. So I know we're going to get onto career later on during this discussion, but the one thing I knew I wanted to be, since I was old enough to remember was a footballer.

Speaker 2: 7:20

Is that because your dad was an AFL player? Oh, sorry, an AFL player at that time.

Speaker 1: 7:24

Yeah, mainly. And so I'd grown up around the game. I used to go with dad to training. I can't remember going well, I probably wasn't even born no, I wasn't, I wasn't born when he was playing at Richmond.

Speaker 1: 7:36

But he had a really successful amateur career with the Old Severians afterwards and I remember going to training with him as a little tacker and the deal was, if I didn't disrupt training and didn't misbehave during training, he would come over after training and we'd have what he called a milkshake kick. So he'd kick a big Sharon ball as high. Well, to me it seemed like he was kicking it as high into the air as he could. It probably wasn't that high, it's probably going easy on me, but if I could pull off a mark, if I could mark the kick, then I'd get a milkshake on the way home from training, on one condition don't tell mum. So they were milkshake marks and I would go along to training.

Speaker 1: 8:22

I mean, I just loved, just loved the smell of the place, I loved the sound of it, I loved the look of it, the feel of it, every sense you can imagine. I just loved going to training with Dad. It was time with him. He was a well-known player, he was captain and I'd go along and it was just the best world. I just absolutely loved it, and so I set my sights on doing what he did. I wanted to play in the VFL, which became the AFL, and I wanted to finish with the Old Zaverians, which I got to do both.

Speaker 2: 8:51

Yeah Well, congratulations on your career. So maybe the highlight would have to be the grand final.

Speaker 1: 8:58

Yeah, definitely the premiership was the highlight. And look, I'd been at the club, for it was my fourth year and I was in the team in 1988, my first year at Hawthorne and that side went on to win the flag by 96 points, beat Melbourne. And I was in the side but dislocated my shoulder in the second last round. So I missed all of the final series. And then the second year, again they win the premiership. That was the very famous grand final against the Cats Geelong, and again I missed out.

Speaker 1: 9:30

I'd been injured not really in the senior side much that year, and it was a very hard side to break into because it was very talented and very good, but I just felt like I could have slash, should have been in the team and missed, missed too. So by the time 1991 rolled around I was 22, I was more mature, I was more settled, I was really focused on making the most of my opportunity or opportunities. And as it turned out maybe it was a coincidence, maybe it was fate, but I returned back into the side in the second last round of 1991, which to me felt like fate. And then after that I never missed a game for Hawthorne for the rest of my career with them.

Speaker 2: 10:13

Yeah, so then you changed teams.

Speaker 1: 10:16

Yes, I moved to.

Speaker 2: 10:17

Brisbane, brisbane Bears. At that point in time, yeah it was Brisbane Bears at that stage.

Speaker 1: 10:22

So I had two years with the Brisbane Bears and then they merged with Fitzroy and we became the Brisbane Lions. So I changed clubs without changing clubs.

Speaker 3: 10:30

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:31

But yeah, the merger happened and we became the Lions. And then that side I'd already retired by this stage, but that side went on to win three premierships in the early 2000s. Yeah, I'd left a year or two before that.

Speaker 2: 10:45

Two against Collingwood Correct, I'm a Collingwood supporter.

Speaker 1: 10:48

I can tell, I can tell. Not that you hold any grudges, of course, no, not at all.

Speaker 2: 10:57

So how old were you when you realised you're probably coming towards the end of your football career? Yeah, yeah, maybe, yeah. And can you? Yeah, maybe yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:06

Look, I was. I'd had a really bad back in my latter years at Brisbane, so it was probably my career was in doubt through that period. So that was 90, I had a car accident in 1996. I finished off that year pretty well, but some of those issues started to really affect me through particularly 97. And then I worked very hard on my body.

Speaker 1: 11:34

The physio at the time, a fantastic fellow, peter Stanton, who'd come out of the AIS in Canberra and had worked with a lot of high-level athletes, had said to me look, I can help you get back to playing condition, but it's going to take a lot of time and effort and you're going to need to put the work in. And look, to be honest, he was more focused at the time with helping me have a back that would allow me to live a normal life post-footy. And I had young kids. I had three kids, or still do have three kids, but all young kids at that stage. And he said I want you to be able to pick your kids up, I want you to be able to play tennis, golf, the things that you like to do off the field in a normal life for someone of your age, because I was only 20,.

Speaker 1: 12:22

I was then sort of mid to late 20s, still a young man, but you know, father of three and he said I want you to be able to have a normal life once you finish playing footy. That's my main goal. And then if you, if you come back and play some extra footy I was not, he didn't see it as a bonus, but he said I want that to happen for you because I know you want it to happen, but really I'm more focused on a decent lifestyle after 40 years over. So it was sort of late 20s 30-ish by the time.

Speaker 2: 12:49

I thought this is probably near the end, which is quite important because his perspective is seeing you as an individual and not just as a sports person to get back on the track Correct, and that probably gives you a bit more comfort to know that he's got my personal interests at heart and not just for the club. Definitely.

Speaker 1: 13:08

And it was a real eye-opener for me because I thought, yeah, that is such good advice. I do want to be able to pick my kids up and I do want to be able to play golf and tennis and be able to run and be a normal, active individual. Yeah. But he also knew I'm someone who's super active. I'm always, always active and always will be. So he knew that once I retired from footy I wasn't going to be the kind of ex-athlete who's going to sit on the couch and get big and eat like a horse and drink like a fish and not exercise. I'm not wild like that. So he knew it was important to me, even though I hadn't expressed it either verbally or thought about it consciously. As soon as he started to talk about it I thought that makes complete sense.

Speaker 2: 13:55

And at that point, was it that you thought, okay, well, what's beyond football? Or were you thinking about that prior to that discussion?

Speaker 1: 14:02

I was thinking about it prior. So my story was, I said before, I only knew one thing when I was coming out of footy Sorry, coming out of school and that was I was going to play footy and the other thing because I was thinking about post-school and then post-football career the only thing I knew was that I was going to be my own boss. I always wanted to be in business and I'm entrepreneurially wired, so I wanted to have my own show. And my father was a sales and marketing person. He'd been in various sales and marketing roles and at the time he was working with IBM in quite a senior sales and marketing role. So I figured, and I was always headed to university, I got the marks to get into university and was always on that pathway.

Speaker 1: 14:55

And the other thing was Hawthorne, at the time it was compulsory to do something. You had to work or study or both, whilst you're playing footy. Remembering, in that period we were training Monday night, tuesday night, thursday night, so not full-time like it is now. So it was very much something you did after work and or study.

Speaker 2: 15:18

So were you paid a salary while a footballer enough to like live? No, you were at that point.

Speaker 1: 15:27

No, so it was almost semi-professional then it was like a part-time job.

Speaker 2: 15:31

Unless you were maybe a Dermot Berriden.

Speaker 1: 15:33

Yeah, that's right. And even Dermot I mean he worked in the media at the same time and, as I said, Hawthorne had a rule that you had to work and or study. So even if it had been enough to survive on, you weren't allowed to just do that. And the reason for that is scientifically you actually perform better when you're doing something alongside your sport. But then the other part of it is it does prepare you for whatever happens once you retire or once you are retired. Most of the time you don't get the choice. So the science is pretty clear that it's a really good thing for your sport and your performance to do something else in conjunction with the sport. And then, of course, you're preparing for life after sport. So you never know how long your career is going to last.

Speaker 1: 16:21

I think the average now is about three and a half years. The average when I played was four years, so it's actually come down a bit. So I went off to university, did a marketing degree, and the reason I chose marketing was because I figured whatever business I get into, everything needs marketing and because dad sort of had it in his genes and he was in that field. I'd seen the power of being able to sell and the power of being able to market and I thought whatever business I choose to get into, eventually, when footy finishes, whenever that might be it's going to need sales and marketing. That'll be a really good broad skill set to have, no matter what I get into Any product or service needs a distribution strategy.

Speaker 2: 17:02

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so you were studying. You finished your studies while you were playing still At Hawthorne, yeah. Did you do any part-time work in sales and marketing? Can you talk us through that?

Speaker 1: 17:15

Sure yeah so I worked for a PR and sports promotions firm which was owned by the person that was also my player agent, a fantastic guy by the name of Danny Finlay. Danny was, and still is, a great friend, but also a really interesting person. He was a very well-known musician in the 60s, so he was in a band called MPD and it was Mike, pete and Danny. Danny was the drummer, pete was the guitarist and Mike was Mike Brady of Up there Kazali, and One Day in September, fame.

Speaker 2: 17:50

Well, we're actually having Mike Brady at the FAAA Grand Final lunch this year there you go.

Speaker 3: 17:56

I haven't even announced it, so there you go.

Speaker 1: 17:58

Well, there's a good little promo.

Speaker 2: 18:00

Announce it first.

Speaker 1: 18:01

Yeah. So Danny was in that band, so he'd been in the show business area for a long time and he really had this fantastic business that did a lot of work in the horse racing and all the horse racing game really was the main thing. So I worked in that business for about three years until I moved to Brisbane. And then I mean he was working on my contract, so he knew what it meant if not that the business was ever going to fall down because I was moving away. So I worked with Danny and that business was called Raceplay. I worked with them until the end of 1994, then moved up to Brisbane and up there.

Speaker 1: 18:42

So one of the things that was funny to me at the time was I had said to Brisbane I'll play football. I'm really, you know, really excited about playing football. But I've got a marketing and sales and PR background. I'm really keen to work, you know, for a good company up there whilst I'm playing footy. But I'll tell you the thing that I don't want to do and that's sell signage at the Gabba. You know the home ground of the Brisbane Bears and, as fate would have it, that's exactly what they offered me and I said this is exactly what I told you I don't want. So, as it turned out, I answered an ad in the. This is a very old-fashioned story, but I answered an ad in the paper. There was an ad for a PR firm that were looking for an account executive and I applied for it and I got the job.

Speaker 1: 19:31

And the fact that I was a footballer was not only not a positive, it was actually a negative, because it meant if I'm playing against West Coast Eagles, I've got to fly from Brisbane to Perth. I'm going to need to miss days of work, or a day at least. So I had to sell myself extra hard because I said, look, hopefully I'll be able to make up for the time lost when I am there. But I've sort of come from this background. I love what you're all about and I'd love to work with you. But you do need to understand there'll be times when I've got to go to training or I've got to go interstate and that's going to need to be a bit of a balance that you need to be comfortable with, or this is not going to work. And they made a brave decision and they put me on. So I worked there for the better part of two years and loved it.

Speaker 2: 20:21

And how did you find balancing being a full-time professional AFL player? I assume that was at that point.

Speaker 1: 20:28

No, it still wasn't full-time at that stage. We would get there in 99, which was my last year, so at this point it was still. I mean, it was getting more full-on, but not full-time. So I was working pretty much a full-time job and this was the thing. So when people talk to me and others about taking too much on and how do you cope with multiple aspects to your life, I think back to that time where I had a wife, three young kids, just bought a house, moved to a state where initially I knew nobody, had no history with Brisbane whatsoever as in the club, but nor the city Didn't know anyone in Brisbane.

Speaker 1: 21:11

I knew a couple of blokes in the footy club, but that was because they played at Hawthorne. One was our runner, team runner, but hardly knew anybody. And then I took on this full-time job. So you are juggling a lot, but it was fantastic. I absolutely loved it and I was the only male. So this PR firm had two teams and everyone was female except for me. So I was a bit of an oddity in that I was the only male, but also because I played footy, there was an extra degree of interest in who the hell is this guy yeah, and I imagine at the time footy in Brisbane probably is not what footy in Brisbane is today Very low profile like baseball is in Australia.

Speaker 1: 21:55

Everyone knows it's big somewhere, it's just not big here. That's what it was like in Brisbane with AFL, so it was a bit of a. It was really interesting for me, but the thing that I kept on focusing on was I had to perform at work, regardless of what I did outside of that office. I had to perform for our clients. So we had clients like Safeway. We had a charity which was multiple sclerosis. We worked with a whole range of interesting clients. One of the most interesting one was and initially I wasn't happy about getting this client, but I led the charge on this one the Bible Society, and they had a new version of the Bible that they wanted to release. It was more Australianized and more modern language. So we ended up doing a really good brainstorming session on this and I was so happy with the result so we turned it into a comedy sketch and, rather than you know, thou Shalt Not Steal, which is, you know, the old-fashioned version, we turned it into Don't Nick Stuff the Aussie version and then what we did was we approached.

Speaker 1: 23:09

We sent it out to all the FM radio stations with the comics on air in Breakfast Radio, which are everywhere, and what normally happens in the PR world is you send out a media release and you're the one who has to chase them to get any story or any traction with publicity. We had the opposite impact People were haunting us, wanting to get us on air. So what we ended up doing was putting up one of the people from the Bible Society, who was an archbishop and a very conservative man and, look to their credit, they bought into the concept because we said we have got a concept here that may scare you, but hear us out before you say no. And we said your intention here is to sell copies of your Bible. We're going to help you get publicity for it and it's going to be known when people walk into a bookstore, which again is an old fashioned concept in a way. When people walk into a bookstore and they see this Bible, they're going to have heard about it on the radio. So it's going to help with keeping it top of mind.

Speaker 1: 24:13

And, as it turned out, we won a golden target award from the Public Relations Institute of Australia because this went absolutely crazy, and so we were really proud of our client because they had taken a leap of faith pardon the pun and they sold way more versions of the Bible than they had hoped for, because people were talking about it and the comedians loved it, they had a ball with it, so it was fun and I loved doing that. And then I'd leave the office, go to training and the thing that the combination of the two that I loved was my mind when I was at work. It was totally engrossed in what I was doing and then I'd say so you guys, I've got to get to training.

Speaker 1: 24:53

So I'd typically leave early and I'd hop in my car, drive to training and then I've got to switch on and think about kicking the footy and having fun with my teammates, and I hadn't thought about footy hardly at all through the day, other than I've just got to make sure I leave at the time that I need to, so I'm not late. But other than that, I was focused on work when I was at work and I was focused on footy when I was at footy and that was really helpful.

Speaker 2: 25:16

Yeah, and that's great that you share that where you have that. You know you have other priorities outside of just football. Obviously you didn't have a choice at that time because you were semi-professional. Yes, even like myself like going to work and the work I do very focused and can be stressful at times.

Speaker 3: 25:31

Yeah, sure.

Speaker 2: 25:32

And I love going to the footy club on Tuesday night and not thinking about work.

Speaker 3: 25:36

It's a release, yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:37

And you're just there with your mates having a kick. Yeah, and that's what it's about. Obviously a different level.

Speaker 1: 25:42

Same principle the same

Speaker 2: 25:44

principle just having something that switch off or the focus elsewhere.

Speaker 1: 25:47

It's really important. Yeah, it is really important.

Speaker 2: 25:49

So thank you for sharing. So now let's talk about your current business and what you currently do. Can you share the name of that company and what that involves? No problem.

Speaker 1: 25:59

So it's called Vest Advisory, as in V-E-S-T, and we specialize in succession planning. So I don't know whether you've seen the miniseries Succession, but it's one of the great shows. It's all about a family that doesn't do succession and all the problems that they suffer as a result, and they're a high profile family they're very well known in the show at least. And so we help families and business owners deal with the issue of succession. And that could be business owners that are wondering what to do with their business, whether they sell it, whether they pass it on to the next generation, whether they might, or one partner might, buy it, the other one, they might sell it together, whether it's a management buyout what makes sense for the business, what makes sense for the owners, and so on.

Speaker 1: 26:54

And then there's succession planning with families, which could include what's going to happen with the kids in terms of inheriting money from mum and dad. Have we got wills and powers of attorney and executorships and trusteeships in place? What about keeping the money within the family if there's a divorce in the family? So there are ways and means of doing that, and it's it's all those, um, all those issues which are quite um, you know, touch, that can be touchy subjects, they can be emotional and they're very confidential and you know they can be very um very hard topics to actually visit. And, as we continue to say to people, the topics of money, death and family dynamics on their own are big topics. You throw them in together and it's no wonder plenty of people put it off and don't actually go there.

Speaker 1: 27:42

So what we do is encourage our clients to A think about it and B talk about it, and the one thing that we do say to people is, whether you do it with Vest Advisory or someone else, it's really good practice to do it with an independent organization, or we've got a client who calls it the independent umpire, and sometimes you are an umpire. You're an umpire, you're a coach, you're a part psychologist, you're a guide, you're a mediator. You're a umpire, you're a coach, you're a part psychologist, you're a guide, you're a mediator. You're a mediator sometimes and you help. Ultimately, you're there to help people make decisions and you might pull on a range of tools to do that, but really it's about holding people's hands, making sure they've got all the tools at their disposal to make sure they can make good decisions, and you leave them to it and then give them guidance and support where they need it.

Speaker 2: 28:32

So what made you from PR go to being a succession advisor? Is there another role you had between the two that helped you lead due to what you do today? Correct.

Speaker 1: 28:47

Yeah, that's the middle part of the story. So I finished up in the PR world and look, footy was getting more and more full on and by the time 1999 came around it was full time. So a friend of mine was working with the Financial Planning Association at the time in quite a high role and he was staying with us in Brisbane and he lives in Melbourne, still does but he was on a business trip to Brisbane and we were having a beer on the back deck of our house at the time and he said what are you going to do when you finish playing footy? And I said I don't know, but it'll be my own business. That's the only thing that I know. And he said, yeah, but what? What business? And I said I honestly don't know. I'm completely open to what it could look like and because he'd had this great exposure to the financial planning world, he said I reckon you should have a look at financial planning. He said trustworthiness is really important. Doing a good job for clients is ultimately what they're after, so that's really important. And he said the other thing that's important is to be able to attract customers, clients. And he said you've really already got one and three covered as in trustworthiness and being able to attract clients. You're already naturally good at that. But he said the only thing you'd need to work on is the second one, which is being able to do a good job. And he said that's going to come down to two things One study and two, experience. You're going to need to work in the field and he said why don't you go and research it for yourself? I'll give you some names of some industry leaders who I respect. And because he was quite high up in that world, he had access to some fantastic people and shout them a coffee and find out what they think and get their thoughts. Do your own, dd.

Speaker 1: 30:32

So I did all that and at the end of that process decided yeah, I'm really interested in this field and I'd always been interested in business. As I said, owning my own business was part of that, but I'd always loved business. I was pretty good at maths. I enjoy economics, maths, the business subjects and politics, and at uni I'd done all those subjects as well in a business degree and I thought this sort of sits in pretty comfortably with me Love helping people and I thought I really like this field. I didn't know much about it and at that stage, so this is 99. This field I didn't know much about it and at that stage, so this is 99. Although it was somewhat an established industry, it was still very much a cottage industry as I saw it, and the one thing that stood out to me was the way that people were remunerated, predominantly at that stage, was via commission, and the people that I interviewed, almost to a T, said this is not where this industry is headed, it's headed to fee-for-service and those businesses were charging that way.

Speaker 2: 31:34

And also, when you talk about commission, that's commission within a product. So the end client doesn't actually know and you, from my understanding, you don't actually have to disclose how much you're earning. Well, at that stage they didn't.

Speaker 1: 31:45

That became law later on and so on, and you did need to disclose it. I mean, my view is why wouldn't you disclose it? Be transparent with your clients, at any rate. What I clearly discovered, thanks to these industry leaders who shared their wisdom with me, was that this is going to be a really important industry At the moment. At that time it was a cottage industry, but it had a lot of potential and it's definitely going to head to fee for service and I actually thought that made a lot of sense and I thought why wouldn't you charge a fee for your service if you provide a good one, like lawyers, like doctors?

Speaker 3: 32:21

like accounts.

Speaker 1: 32:21

People expect to pay People expect to pay for a good service. It's value You're providing value, value, you're providing value. So, long story short, I did a financial planning diploma by correspondence and that was whilst my footy career. That was my last year in footy, at least at professional level, and then I finished that off when we moved back to Melbourne. I worked in a few roles but I found out my sweet spot was business development. No surprise, the marketing background sales out. My sweet spot was business development. No surprise, you know the marketing background sales, marketing, pr. Business development is the next best thing.

Speaker 2: 32:53

I used to call myself the brochure delivery man the BDM, and also work being a part of a team. Yes, Right you have to build relationships. You do Because if you're not mates off the field, I think it's hard to perform on the field. It is If you want to get a kick, it's hard.

Speaker 1: 33:15

So, yeah, I basically worked out fairly quickly that my because there are so many roles within that industry and I realised, look, I'm not a technical person, I'm a people person. So I'm going to focus on the people. And the people need help, so they need to know where to go that they can trust. Back to my mate's analogy before where can they trust and who's going to do a good job? So I partnered up with a firm, donahue Financial Planning and this was in the early 2000s when I'd moved back from Melbourne, and my role was to introduce new clients to them. I became their BDM. So I did that for a while and the owner of that business because he knew that I wanted and I kept on hounding him, saying you know, I really want to own. Would you sell your business to me, you know? Just cheekily. And he said honestly, if you want to run your own financial planning, wealth management business, you're going to have to spend some time on the tools actually producing the advice. And I said that makes sense to me. But where would you do that? Where would you suggest? He said go to one of the big banks. They will train you. You won't have to worry about clients because they've got millions of them and you'll have plenty to work on and they will come in the door. You won't even have to find them. And that's exactly what I did.

Speaker 1: 34:25

So I went and worked with ANZ, and it was during the GFC. So I walked into the Preston Business Centre for ANZ on Bell Street, preston. I inherited a client base of about 250 small to medium business owners and some higher end individual clients. And it's fair to say that, because the GFC was in full swing, there were a lot of scared customers and I'd inherited the phone from the previous advisor. And people are ringing me or they thought they were ringing him, but I was answering. They were ringing and abusing the hell out of me for losing all their money. And, apart from getting a sore ear, I lost my voice trying to explain to them. Listen, firstly, I've never met you. Secondly, you haven't lost all your money. Thirdly, why don't you come in, bring your accountant, bring your wife, bring whoever you like, and let's have a down to earth, sensible discussion about this, because there's a way through this that's actually going to be really good for you. And so I just did that with every client.

Speaker 1: 35:29

And what was really interesting to me was. It was a great life lesson. It was like the chicken little moment. The sky was falling in for these people. And when they came in, it gave me time to have a look through their files and in every single case they were categorized as an aggressive investor, which meant they should be wanting to buy more stuff when markets were going down, which they did severely during the GFC. So I said to them look, one of two things is happening here You've either been miscategorized as an aggressive investor you should be a conservative investor, so that's on us if that's the case or you're just scared, and I said my feeling is so. I listened to their responses and in every single case they were just scared, which is fine.

Speaker 1: 36:16

We all have moments where we doubt ourselves or we doubt things, particularly when markets are going down and the media is having a field day, scaring the hell out of everybody. I love it. I love it. That's what sells papers and gets you to watch the TV and listen to the radio. And I don't know whether you can recall that time, fabian, but I remember waking up during the GSC, and I would wake up to talkback radio on AM and the lead story on the news for weeks was how much the share market had tanked in America overnight. That's what the news was telling us every morning. So of course the news was telling us every morning. So of course people were scared.

Speaker 1: 36:57

So part of the role even though I'm not a technical person and I kept saying, look, in terms of what you're invested in, let's park that decision for a later time. But let's just talk about basics here. You're either scared or you've been miscategorized. I think it's the former. And then I got the feedback the accountants are listening to what I'm saying. That came along with my clients and they're going yeah, it makes sense. And and and everybody calmed down.

Speaker 1: 37:22

It was, it was a really great life lesson. Bit of assurance, bit of assurance. And they realized, yeah, you know what I am doing? A chicken little, I'm just scared the fuck. The sky's going to fall in and it's probably not.

Speaker 1: 37:40

And one of the ways that I got them to realize that this was the case was I'd say look, I can see from your balance sheet here you own a house worth $2 million and you've got a share portfolio that used to be worth $2 million and right now, on paper, it's valued at 1.2. So on paper it's had an $800,000 adjustment, 1.2. So on paper it's had an $800,000 adjustment and you are saying to me you want to sell all your shares. Now just park that discussion for a moment. What would you do if your house, all of a sudden, you were told it's not worth $2 million today, it's only worth 1.2. Would you sell it or would you hang on to it? And every single person said, well, I'd hang on to it, I'd wait for the market to go up. And I said that's exactly what you should do with your shares. It's exactly the same principle. You're just looking at them as different things. They're both assets and you're just looking at it because you're scared One's got data pricing, one doesn't.

Speaker 1: 38:25

That's right. Yeah, one's more liquid and one's not, but the principle's the same. That's an asset, they're assets, and you're just scared. Don't do something silly just because you're scared.

Speaker 2: 38:36

Yeah, and is that dealing? Working during the GFC as a financial advisor, dealing with those clients? Has that helped you in your role today? Oh, a hell of a lot.

Speaker 1: 38:50

I mean it was part psychology, you're part coach, you're part mentor, you're part coach, you're part guide, you're all kinds of things, and you've got to be able to whack some way, depending on the need and if you understand your client and you listen properly and you watch their body language, that's why I got them to come in. I mean, zoom wasn't really a thing at the time and let me tell you, the phone is not a good way to talk to people who are really, really scared. So I said, come in, it'll give me time to think about and look at your situation. Let's get to know each other better. Bring in whoever you like, bring in your whole family if you want, but let's talk about this rationally and let's go through it. So it's helped me.

Speaker 1: 39:33

I mean now, with the succession planning discussions, we're dealing with emotional situations. Quite often we're dealing with emotional topics. We're dealing with, as I said, those topics before money, death, family dynamics and multiple stakeholders as well. Yeah, yeah, and sometimes it's the fear of the unknown what's going to happen if? And you can have plans for all kinds of eventualities. But nothing's more, I guess, assuring than having plans for all of those things and then you can work out which way you actually decide to go, depending on how you feel at the time, because we've got to be flexible as well.

Speaker 2: 40:07

Yeah, you talked about balance. You've always had multiple things, you're always doing multiple things, you want to keep active and you know talk about best advisory and you're also the president of the Hawthorne Football Club. So how much time do you spend with the Hawthorne Football Club? What's your involvement? Can you share some insights on that?

Speaker 1: 40:28

Yeah, sure. So I got elected at the end of 2022 and I'd been on the board previously, but not as president, and the role of president is much more time like amazingly more time-consuming than being a director. And I'd been football director previously, and that was fairly involved in its own right, but for a number of reasons, the role initially was incredibly time-intensive. I got elected and my election was in contrast to what the board wanted at the time, so I guess that was a hostile election. I didn't have any handover, I didn't have any induction. I just had to pick up the pieces that I decided were the most important to pick up. There was no handbook, so I was learning on the job, and not only that. I needed to get to know my fellow board members, my fellow directors. I needed to get to know all the senior executive. I needed to get to know the staff. I needed to get to know the football department and a whole number of other stakeholders that comprise a footy club, including sponsors and coterie groups and commercial partners members. There's a whole litany of areas in a football club, as you know, so I had to get to know all of those people pretty quick, smart, and so that needed a lot of time. There were a lot of coffees had, there were a lot of one-on-one conversations, there were a lot of meetings, there were a lot of discussions, and so that became very full on and I'd sold my wealth management business. So this was the other part of the bit.

Speaker 1: 42:07

So post ANZ, I set up my own firm with a colleague from ANZ and we ran that for about 11 years and then sold it, and that's when I decided I'd specialize in succession planning.

Speaker 1: 42:19

But so when I sold that business, I had a period of time where I worked with the company that bought it and that ended up being close to 18 months, and that was during COVID. So that gave me time to think and reflect about what I really wanted to focus my energies on business-wise think and reflect about what I really wanted to focus my energies on business-wise. And at the same time I felt the calling to put my hand up for president at the Hawthorne Football Club. And I did know, if I got elected, that at least I'd have a bit of time that I could spend to do things properly. Because, a I'd sold my business and, b I hadn't made clear plans on what I was going to do next. So there was a period of time there of a few months where I didn't have a working role, so I could literally spend whatever time I needed to on the club.

Speaker 2: 43:08

Because, from my understanding the role as president, that's not a paid position. No, it's voluntary. So a lot of people like myself, prior to having a discussion with you, would just assume you're getting paid a really nice salary.

Speaker 1: 43:19

People ask me how's your job going at Hawthorne? I nicely, I hope it's nice. I nicely correct them and say it's not a job, it's a voluntary role. My job is in my business, but it's certainly a very important role. But every chair slash president and director of every football club or every AFL football club is a volunteer, unpaid volunteer.

Speaker 2: 43:45

So you talked about earlier on in the podcast around when you first started at Hawthorne how you had to have a job or study. Can you talk to me about the current Hawthorne Football Club, which I assume is a lot bigger than what it was when you joined in terms of members, and how successful the team has been, even in recent years, and this year included? Is that still a thing? Where do players part of your role as a president or as a football club? Do you enforce players to ensure they have another job or they do study? Would you talk us through that?

Speaker 1: 44:26

please Well look. I think the first difference to point out is it is now very full-time, so they have one mandate. The players have one mandated day off a week, so during that day it's not forced upon them, but they're strongly encouraged to study and or get some work experience around their football commitments. So that's in, I guess, in reference to the fact that not only is it good for them post-career, to be honest, when they're playing footy they're not wanting to think about what's good for them post-career, they want to know what's good for their career. So, as I said before once, they realize well, actually, by having something else to concentrate on and focus on and develop myself in, that will actually help me on field, and so that's quite a powerful tool that clubs and players can tap into. But look, there's a whole section within our club that is dedicated to player development. So we have a player development manager and a player development team.

Speaker 2: 45:34

So we talk about player development that's off the field.

Speaker 1: 45:37

Off the field yeah, so look, any single thing that could help a player with their on-field performance they have access to, but I'm talking about off-field here, which is study and or work. So there are things set up for them that they can explore. The AFL Players Association has an allocated amount of money that they siphon from the TV rights effectively money that the AFL gives to them or provides to them and they allocate that money to players who want to study, for example, and the way it works is you'll be reimbursed for the cost of your studies when you pass a subject or subjects. You basically apply for an education grant and it's approved, subject to your passing the subjects, which is a really smart way to do it.

Speaker 2: 46:25

And most corporate businesses do the same yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:28

Yeah, it's a great way to do it. So the players can tap into that, and most of them are doing something Nearly all of them are doing something, if not all of them and that's a great platform that they can utilize whilst they're playing football. And then the other side of it, too is and I'm really passionate about this helping young people. And what I would call elite performance advice, which I provide to people as well, is being a bit of a sounding board and saying look, any time you want to have a chat, because I've come through the playing route. I've got a story to tell players. I've been in your boots, mate. I've been in your shoes. I know what it's like to play. I know what it's like to play and study. I know what it's like to play, study and work and have a family as well and have a family and it will help you.

Speaker 1: 47:20

It will help you play better footy and of course, it will help you post-football and also helping players plug into the right kind of plug them into a network. So if they've got an interest in a particular field, introduce them to people that are experts in that field. And who interest in a particular field?

Speaker 2: 47:37

introduce them to people that are experts in that field and who knows what kind of mentoring relationships can be established in that way too, yeah, Well feel free if any of the Hawks players want a career in finance and want to have a chat, always open to having a chat and a coffee.

Speaker 2: 47:48

Yeah, fantastic. So what advice do you talk about the players? What advice do you give them? Now, when you talk about sounding board, is it go out there, learn, develop, try not to be too ingrained in just football. Would that be the biggest piece of advice? Pretty much.

Speaker 1: 48:08

I mean, I'm big on encouraging them to learn. So, yes, do a formal course, but there's a lot of sense in being interested and reading as much as you can, learning as much as you can. You know, when you go to a, if you have to do an appearance at a business or a networking function, or even just a footy function, go and meet some new people. Ask them what they do, why do they do it? Why do they love doing what they do? How do they start their business? Why do they love employing people? Why do they love producing the service or the products they do? And get to know people and be interested in others. They'll be interested in you anyway because you play footy right, but find out about them and that will make you stand out.

Speaker 2: 48:53

Yeah, is it hard to do that? Because if you're a footballer, I don't know, say an example, someone that's really good, will Day, who plays for you guys, who's an exceptional player, when he goes to an event, everyone wants to talk to him. Yes, so how do you reverse the conversation to ask about, you know, fabian Ruggieri from River of Criminal? What do you do?

Speaker 1: 49:16

Well, what I do is I? Well, it goes back to what I said before. I have a genuine interest in people, and people love telling you their story. It's their favourite thing to talk about. So ask them about it. And what you find is, the more you do it, the more you get into the habit of being better at it sorry, of doing it more often and then you get better and better and better. And what you find is people's stories are genuinely interesting and they love telling it. So ask them about it, but keep asking the deeper questions. So, oh, that's interesting. How did you get into that? All right, and then there's often a great story behind how the hell?

Speaker 1: 49:52

they sometimes's just coincidence, sometimes it's fate, sometimes it's. I bumped into a guy at a pub, yeah, and my life went in a different direction. I mean my story about financial planning. My mate on the back deck over a beer you should consider this. So I'm matt lally is his name. I mention him always because I'm so grateful to him.

Speaker 1: 50:10

If if he hadn't have asked me the question, I wouldn't have had that discussion. So it was his question of me that drew out of me enough information to at least explore what he was talking about. So ask people questions, and some great advice I was given years ago by a financial planner who a mutual friend introduced me to was most people spend too much time trying to be interesting because they talk about themselves. But he said the reality is the most interesting people are interested. They ask questions of others. They want to know because they're curious and they ask legitimately curious questions because they actually want to know. So it's not just about asking questions, it's about listening to the answers and understanding why that answer was important to that person yeah, genuinely interested.

Speaker 2: 51:04

And when I did my MBA we learned about five whys. Yep, I'm sure if you've heard of that before.

Speaker 3: 51:10

Keep asking deeper, Like why did you do that? Okay, well, why did you do that? Why?

Speaker 2: 51:14

did you do that? Yeah, and just to get down to, ultimately, the, the root reason as to to why you did that and learn deeper so but thank you very much for coming on the finance podcast. I've really enjoyed this conversation. Likewise, I feel like we could keep talking for another hour but I'm mindful of time we should maybe in uh or hopefully all the best uh with fest advisory it seems like you're already super successful and, uh, all the best with the hawks this year.

Speaker 2: 51:41

I hope that for you. I hope they go all the way. Not so much very kind, not so much for me, but uh, thank you very much. I've appreciated the discussion likewise. Thanks, baby. Thanks for listening this week. Stay tuned for our next episode and keep up to date with us by following the Finance Friends podcast on Instagram and TikTok Plus. Connect with us and our guests over on our LinkedIn page, all linked in the show notes.

Speaker 3: 52:15

Disclaimer this podcast exists for informational and entertainment purposes only. The personal opinions of the speaker and guests do not represent the view of any other party. If this recording contains reference to financial products, that reference does not constitute advice nor recommendations and may not be relied upon.