Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to Finance Friends podcast. And today we have the wonderful Chris Judd, a two-time Brandylo medalist, premiership captain, all-australian, multiple times Welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:14

Thanks, Fabian. Thanks for having me on the show. Looking forward to having a chat.

Speaker 1: 0:17

Well, thank you for coming on. So today I want to talk about your career. That not only as a footballer, as most people know, but also as a investment manager, because that's what you do today. So what's the name of your company?

Speaker 2: 0:31

So I'm the founder of the Serity Macro Fund. So we've been in investment markets in different forms since retiring from footy about 10 years ago and then founded that about a bit over a year and a half ago now.

Speaker 1: 0:45

Maybe just give us a quick overview.

Speaker 2: 0:49

Yeah, so we're macro-themed investors, so we only invest in equities and we're long only. And whilst most funds really have a bottom-up focus, we start with top-down dynamics in markets and look for secular themes that we like and pay a lot of attention to liquidity metrics and then go through bottom-up analysis then. So it's how I invested privately before the fund and I guess you know from a macro side of things, that's really around stories and is almost a way of viewing the world and explaining what's going on in the world. So I've always been fascinated by macroeconomics and that's really the part of the market that excites me the most. Yep.

Speaker 1: 1:29

And at what age did you become interested in financial markets?

Speaker 2: 1:35

I bought my first shares when I was 16. I got some money for the AIS for an academy that I was a part of and looked at the old man and said what's the deal with that? And he said I don't know. And so we walked down to the news agency and got a share magazine and we bought shares and it was a toss-up between AWA, which was a small OEM manufacturer, or Woolworths actually, and we went with AWA, which fortuitously got bought out. It wasn't a great company and we got out of jail, I suspect, on that one, but certainly Woolworths would have been a good buy and hold from what's that 26 years ago? Yeah, but that was it.

Speaker 2: 2:16

I didn't grow up in a financial family at all. My parents, whilst Clever, had zero interest in markets or finance. My grandfather, my dad's dad, liked his stocks. So I'm not sure if the passion skipped a generation or what happened. But I think, being naturally competitive by nature, there's an attraction particularly to listed equities where there's a real scoreboard every day, and I'm not the sort of investor that says the scoreboard's wrong. That's the scoreboard, and then you work out if you won or not based on what you hold, and there's something about that accountability that I really enjoy.

Speaker 1: 2:56

And is that stemmed as a child? You talk about always being competitive, having that competitive nature. Was that when you were? Do you have any siblings? Did you have a competitive nature or just playing footy growing up?

Speaker 2: 3:11

You know I think that's a personality type and you know I score incredibly low on agreeability. So I'm you know, naturally I'm always have the urge to take the other side of someone's view, which can be an annoying trait when you live with someone. But as an investor, I think that's a useful characteristic, because if you believed everything a CEO told you when you meet with them, you'd be investing in every single company that you ever met with. So I think that high level of disagreeability and competitiveness, whilst annoying in some instances in life, is useful for both professional sport and investing, because any time you invest, you're essentially saying the market's wrong. You know how arrogant is that. You're saying that the price that the market has given this asset is incorrect and I'm right because of X, y, z. So it's. You know I think it's a really tough career path for people that are highly agreeable, because how do you make that call each day?

Speaker 1: 4:17

Yeah, and it's interesting because a lot of portfolio managers are quite unique and maybe aren't easily, like you said, agreeable, but they look beyond maybe a friendship or a sales pitch to understand the company more deeply and invest accordingly.

Speaker 2: 4:35

Yeah, I mean there's plenty of careers in finance that work if you're agreeable. You know wealth management, asset allocation things like that, but picking individual stock names yeah, we know wealth management, asset allocation, things like that. But picking individual stock names, yeah, I think it's suited to those personality traits because, like I said, you're making the decision each day that the market's wrong and the price they're allocating to those things, yep.

Speaker 1: 4:57

And what skills did you learn as a? If you take a step back, so you were drafted to West Coast as an 18-year-old, so were your biggest learnings early on in your career as a footballer?

Speaker 2: 5:08

then we can help to understand how that's transitioned to being a successful portfolio manager yeah, look, I think, um, in two of the lessons learned and there's sort of thousands, uh, that probably resonate with investing One that springs to mind is you know to take notice, or the importance of when a football club or a company's culture is aligned with their competitive advantage. So often it's easy to think in life that culture's got to look a certain way. So an example in the real world would be if you met an accounting firm and their competitive advantage, they said, was trust and reliability and compliance, and everyone is walking around with purple hair and drinking booze at lunchtime and there's bring your dog to work day and loud music blaring the office. That would be a misalignment of culture and competitive advantage. That exact same culture was alive at an advertising agency whose competitive advantage was coming up with ideas that no one else has thought of and thinking outside the box. There may be good alignment there and that's something I look for in companies today and that's something that resonates with my football career. You know, particularly from the West Coast days, where the competitive advantage of that team and why that team was able to disrupt if you like, using finance vernacular the Brisbane Lions teams that were much heavier and stronger than everyone else was just through immense running power, and it was probably the first team to really value both running and being light, which has now become a real focus of midfield groups across the competition. Since, and culturally, it was just an expectation that when you come to pre-season on day one, you'd be running near personal best times on beep tests and various other running tests that were implemented, and there was never a point where you know a management coach or a psychologist said we've got to have our culture aligned with our competitive advantage. It just naturally evolved but it became a very powerful thing, and so that's something I think you can take from both sport and investing.

Speaker 2: 7:20

And the other thing I think is just the rewards. The big rewards in both sport and investing go to people prepared to do something different. They're also the major losses, unfortunately, and you weigh up the cost benefits of doing that. In sport, because it's so binary. I think it makes more sense to take more risk and do something different, because following best practice has a habit of getting you sort of top four at best, but not the whole way to victory. Business is a little bit different. If I run a listed supermarket business, there can be two, three successful supermarkets. So following best practice may make more sense. So you need to be clear on what game you're playing, but certainly the major rewards, whether it's in sport or investing, go to those that do something different first.

Speaker 1: 8:13

Yeah, and I guess it depends on what part of the business cycle you're at as well. You know, if you are a newcomer, you want to disrupt, but if you're maybe a mature business like a Coles or Woolworths, you've got to do properly. Maybe you don't need to do too much disrupting.

Speaker 2: 8:28

Yeah, that's right, but it still means the major awards will go to those doing something different. It doesn't mean it's right for everyone, but, yeah, you're not seeing a lot of 10, 20x companies that are just following the path of someone else.

Speaker 1: 8:42

At what age were you when you realised that you are ready for that transition out of professional sport into financial services? Is there a certain point in your life that you thought, wow, this is probably getting close to that time. Or were you preparing for that throughout your career? I realised when I snapped my ACL I was ready for a transition out of AFL, your career I?

Speaker 2: 9:04

realised when I snapped my ACL, I was ready for a transition out of AFL. And then look, my initial thoughts was I'd become a either buy a small operating company or or start a company, you know, a traditional sort of operating business, a small business, largely because the entrepreneurs I admired the most at that stage of my life. That's what they did and and that should have been a huge mistake, which I was really fortunate I didn't end up doing. I um, and it would have been a huge mistake because I love. I love ideas and exploring ideas at depth.

Speaker 2: 9:38

I don't love managing large amounts of people and dealing with a lot of HR issues, so funds management is a great business to found for someone like that, because you do spend most of your days thinking about ideas. You know my staff consists of one analyst and a lady in administration, but the lion's share of my time is spent exploring concepts, which is both what I'm good at and what I really enjoy. So, yeah, that's how it panned out. I was lucky enough to get a job as an analyst post that injury at a venture capital fund, which was a really good experience, and I learnt a lot, and that was my first foray into sort of the corporate world.

Speaker 1: 10:18

So were you still playing professional sport at that point?

Speaker 2: 10:20

No, that was about a couple of months post-career.

Speaker 1: 10:24

Okay, and did you do any study while you were at university?

Speaker 2: 10:27

I didn't complete anything. I did a media and communications course that I didn't complete, and I started an MBA and didn't complete that either. So I'd done a little bit of study, but I had been investing privately at a reasonably sophisticated level for well since my sort of mid-20s.

Speaker 1: 10:48

Can you share an example of an investment you did as a private investor? Because I'd imagine as a professional sports person that's in the public eye, you'd probably get a lot of people trying to pitch investment ideas to you. How do you navigate that? Do you have an advisor? Do you navigate it on your own?

Speaker 2: 11:06

Yeah. So I did it all myself because, I mean, I executed through brokers but I sort of didn't have a wealth manager or someone holding my hand, because I wanted to be I didn't want to be dependent on other people post-football and wanted to develop those skills myself, which I'm really glad I did at the time. That meant I made a heap of crappy investments in my early 20s and I was lucky enough to meet the founder of Euros in my sort of mid-20s.

Speaker 1: 11:32

Which are a broking firm out of WA, which are a broking firm out of WA.

Speaker 2: 11:35

So I was in Melbourne at the time, but he really took me under his wing and really taught me how to invest in small and micro cap companies, and what that means is really learning how to sell. You know it's really easy to to buy listed equities. It's really challenging to sell, so to start to develop a bit of framework around that was useful.

Speaker 1: 12:02

So just when you talk about sell, what do you mean by that? Can you be deeper? So sell equities as in if you're the company, no, no.

Speaker 2: 12:10

So like when I make a decision to buy $100 worth of a stock that's easy. What's hard is when to sell that stock, because it might've ripped three times and you're convinced it's going to be the next Fortescue, or it might've be down 30% and the competitive part of you wants to get to break even before you sell.

Speaker 2: 12:28

I mean that's a whole psychological event that you need to align with the type of investor you are and you want to be and what's actually happening within that company. So that's the real skill set in equities and particularly in small cap equities. You know, if I look at property investing, you know, particularly pre all the different taxes the government particularly Victoria slapped on. But for me property the skill is in the buying. If you buy property really well, there's really been no reason to sell it. You know you can leverage against it if it goes berserk and use that cash somewhere else.

Speaker 2: 13:10

Traditionally, if you're bought a good property small and micro-cap equities aren't like that If you, you know, even if you buy well, the skill is in the selling. So that's really what I learned in my 20s and I guess my style of investing then was almost akin to a VC investor's mentality where I think this smaller microcap company can do X, y, z and then get re-rated and then that might be in a liquidity event when I would sell Yep, as opposed to a VC company where they will say this Series A opportunity, they can do X, y, z, re-rate, and then we'll raise a new Series B round. So it was that sort of mindset, but always enlisted equities and always place a huge premium on liquidity. Yep listed equities and always place a huge premium on liquidity.

Speaker 1: 13:58

Yeah, because obviously VC they'll invest early days, not more seed investments, more concepts, so that the business is generally running and then you know, look to whether you say exit through another raise or through an IPO or a share trade sale. So talk me through your time being an analyst within a venture capital firm. What did your job involve? What was the day-to-day?

Speaker 2: 14:25

So I was the first point of call for all the companies that were wanting capital from that VC fund. So I was the initial screening point, if you like. So I saw every company that came in the door and then would do, I guess, some reasonably basic analysis and then recommend to the portfolio manager if he should commit time to more extensive DD. So it was a good grounding in finance and a good ability to see lots of different businesses, but also a good ability to learn. I don't like VC investing, and particularly in Australia where the addressable markets are quite small. It was almost a premium on being a liquid, which I always struggled to get my head around. I was looking at plenty of listed companies at the same time that were trading much more cheaply, yet you could get in and out of them, you know, whenever you wanted it at some level, depending on buying interest. So it just didn't. It sort of didn't work for the type of investing that sort of and that's the other thing with investing is you can make it however you want.

Speaker 2: 15:43

Whatever your personality trait is, there's a style of investing that suits you. You know people sort of assume if you're an investor you have to be X, y Z. But you know, if you're a math genius, you might be building algorithms. If you're a macro guy, you might like stories. If you're a you know value guy, you might be building algorithms. If you're a macro guy, you might like stories. If you're a value guy, you might be obsessed with bottom-up analysis. If you're a you went to Scotch you might like bonds, I don't know. Whatever your background is, there's a type of investing that's for you and that's one of the. That's sort of some similarities to AFL as well. There's generally a spot for you for most body shapes at some level in AFL.

Speaker 1: 16:21

So what are your biggest learnings from AFL that you've been able to move into being a successful portfolio manager?

Speaker 2: 16:30

Look, I think being attracted to discomfort is one. So you know, in professional sport it's fairly easy to work out what people don't want to do because it's uncomfortable, and then when those things that people don't want to do are efficacious for performance, that's where you should zero in. So, for example, you know people lying on a massage table is useful for performance. It can loosen up the lower back, it can get rid of a tight hammy, but it's pretty relaxing to do so. There's no competitive edge in doing it. You know, when you compare that to acupuncture needles, which might be more uncomfortable but even better outcome physically, you know it's to always be on the lookout for things which people don't want to do, that can help performance. I mean, social media is another one. Like if you had to do a quiz for which professional athletes are on social media, it would be 99% yeah. Yet those same athletes wear a torrent of abuse from you know all sorts of nuffies online who they've never met, and I think there's very few.

Speaker 2: 17:48

there'd be a couple of different personality types where it might help their performance, but very few Yet everyone's on it.

Speaker 1: 17:54

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:54

Because it gives you a short-term dopamine hit and it provides comfort and, you know, if you're single, it might be a good way to meet people. X, y, z, so they're the sorts of things that often high-performing athletes are attracted to, things that are uncomfortable, that others don't want to do. That help performance and it's a long-winded way of getting to. How does that apply to investment markets? You know so as a portfolio, you know that investors hate volatility, so there's a strong desire for portfolio managers to try and smooth out results each month where they can, but over the long term that hurts performance. It might assist in the short term in getting fun in the door, but one of the things we're attracted to is to try and embrace that volatility instead of smoothing it out with a shorter-term focus, because we think that has the potential to improve outcomes for our investors in the long run. So they're the sorts of things.

Speaker 2: 18:53

So a bit of a contrarian approach a little bit, I think, just acknowledging what the pain points are and if those pain points are in conflict with the longer-term outcome, you want be attracted to go through the pain in the short term. I think that correlates between both professional sport and investing.

Speaker 1: 19:13

Yeah, and you were a leader at West Coast and also at Carlton officially the captain Did you have. Sorry, maybe if you can share your leadership traits that you learnt at whilst playing football and how has that transferred to leading? You mentioned you've got one analyst, but obviously leading a business and an admin person and has that, and also maybe talking to external investors that invest in your fund, have those leadership traits played out and helped you to be successful in your current role?

Speaker 2: 19:52

I think you want the incentives to be aligned, to be aligned, and I think one of my learnings, particularly later in my time as a captain, that you know, if you want to build intrinsic motivation, extrinsic drivers are the worst thing you can do. So, for instance, there was a time at Carlton where we would punish people if they were late or sloppy with extra training, and I think that's really the wrong way to look at things. You know, on the one hand, to say that you want people that are intrinsically driven to want to achieve, but then subconsciously telling them that the training is a punishment is sort of in conflict. So to just be really clear on the different messages that you're sending and to have those incentives aligned, I think is really important, yeah, but there's look, I think there's some of the lessons.

Speaker 2: 20:57

I think the other thing is just to be the leader. That you are, not the leader that you think the picture in the textbook says you should be, is a really important learning as well, because there's lots of different ways to lead, and people will be more attracted to follow someone when they feel they're following an actual human, as opposed to someone who's robotic or is trying to imitate a textbook view of what leadership should be.

Speaker 1: 21:26

Yeah, so your culture within your current firm? Is that something that you've been able to? You obviously talk about authenticity so authentic and maybe, if you could share what is your culture, is it challenging the status quo of the CEOs to make sure that you are allocating your investments to the right company?

Speaker 2: 21:50

I think culturally, yeah, being authentic is really important. I want to create a fun environment for our staff, Like I've never had to sit down with my analyst and say you've got to be back in the office five days a week. Like he's in the office five days a week, as am I, you know, because I think it's a good environment to be in and one that's enjoyable. And then, internally, I want us to feel particularly fussy about the things we invest in. So the metaphor we will use is you know, we should imagine we're the best looking girl in the world at a bar and we're single. And why would you settle, if that was you, for a guy with bad breath or a pot belly or a shit sense of humour, um, or a bald guy? That's a joke, fabian. I'm not far off, mate. Don't worry, I'm not far off.

Speaker 1: 22:51

Everyone knows, bald guys are a great catch.

Speaker 2: 22:53

That's why my brothers keep telling me to shave it off, but you know, if we meet with management and they say they're going to do something and it hasn't been done or there's something we don't like. You know there's been a couple of instances in the fund where we've given them the benefit of that and we just want to be fussier than that and and to cut it, and you might cut it and miss out on something. That's fine. We just, in terms of probabilities, if we have that mindset of being the fussiest person in the bar, because our capital can invest anywhere, we can invest in any company we want and actually anywhere in the world, not just australia. So we just shouldn't settle on management teams that we're not certain on it doesn't mean they're bad people, but if we're just not completely 100% confident in it, we should be fussy enough to look elsewhere.

Speaker 1: 23:36

You want to have that high conviction in what you invest in.

Speaker 2: 23:39

Yeah, because our capital is unconstrained. It's so often it's easy to look at the portfolio and go well, if we sell that we'll miss out and it might go up and it might. But if there's, you know, some half red flags you've already seen, history will tell us we're better off cutting it and just moving to something that's a higher probability of going up. It doesn't mean the thing you cut won't go up, but we just want to stack the odds in our favour.

Speaker 1: 24:02

And, like you said, you're unconstrained, I assume you're. Are you benchmark aware or benchmark unaware? Or are you benchmark aware or benchmark unaware?

Speaker 2: 24:08

We're measured against the Aussie Small Lords Accumulation Index, so the small listed companies in Australia, and that's our focus. But we do have the ability to invest in large cap stocks and we do have the ability to invest overseas. So it's a really broad mandate. But we are measured against the ASX Smalls because that's where our focus is. But we also acknowledge we're living in a world where weird things happen. You know we had a stage where we were locked in our homes for two or three years. Not long ago we had a period where there was $18 trillion worth of negative yielding debt. So we just want to have that broad mandate because if there is something really strange happening, we want that freedom to be able to invest in something that we think can benefit from it. We don't want to be constrained by synthetic rules we've created for ourselves.

Speaker 1: 24:56

Yeah, and I guess that's with a lot of equity funds.

Speaker 2: 24:58

They are constrained Big time and that's hard, that's a much easier fund to market because an allocator say right, you'll sit neatly in our smalls bucket, you'll sit in our large cap bucket, you'll sit in our global bucket. From an allocator's perspective, we almost fit more in an alternative strategy because we're not neatly just small caps, even though that's where our bias sits.

Speaker 1: 25:21

Yeah, and do you go out and meet the CEOs it sounds like of the companies? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:25

Yeah, particularly in any small company, we do. You know some of the larger cap companies we won't get one-on-ones with, but you know earning season and stuff. We're sitting on those calls as well and, yeah, that's a big part of the advantage you know we would. There's always someone on the other side of a trade. We would like to think that a lot of the time with us it's a mum or dad that's working full time, doesn't have the ability to meet management, can get overly emotional, both to the upside and the downside, and that's why small cap stocks can be so appealing, because there are often times where they're, when they're under-researched or not researched at all, without a lot of other institutional investors there yet. So in an ideal world, that's where we play, yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:14

And what advice would you give yourself as a 21-year-old still playing at West Coast? I believe, yeah. How old are you when you transitioned to Carlton?

Speaker 2: 26:24

I was 23 or 24.

Speaker 1: 26:26

Well, let's say 23 or 24, just transition to Carlton. What advice would you give someone that might be in a similar situation to you 23, at their peak of their sports profession to where you are today what to start thinking about for their transition to their next career? Or is it too early to start thinking about that? Is it 100% all about being the best professional athlete you can be?

Speaker 2: 26:53

I would have said there's going to be some weird Japanese guy called Satoshi Nakamoto and listen to what he's saying early no, what would I have said? You know, I wouldn't have listened anyway at that age. You know what? I wouldn't have listened anyway at that age.

Speaker 2: 27:11

but um, no, look I think most things they look externally like they're about knowing more about you know a topic or knowing more about something else. Most of these things are more about knowing yourself. You know sports a big one for that and I think investing's a big one for that, and I think investing is a big one for that.

Speaker 2: 27:29

The challenge is more around really knowing yourself what your skills are and what your psychology is like and what you're suited to. And I think if you know that, then you better. You'll be able to better work out what game you're playing, because everyone in listed equities is playing a different game. You need to know what your game is. Are you a short-term trader, are you a swing trader, are you a long-term value guy? And once you know your skills, what game you're playing, you're sort of half a chance.

Speaker 1: 27:59

What have been the biggest learnings for you transitioning into portfolio management?

Speaker 2: 28:08

I'm wrapped. I did it because I was a private investor before starting this, so my analyst was already working for me pre the fund.

Speaker 1: 28:16

Yeah, so just investing your own money. My own capital in listed equities and then you employed someone to help you do research for that, yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:23

And so that was going really well. And I would talk to people. They would ask what I was doing and I'd say I was a private investor and it sort of looked like I was unemployed.

Speaker 1: 28:31

Some people would maybe call it like a family office.

Speaker 2: 28:34

Yeah, like the large Jewish families would laugh if I said what I was doing was running a family office, but the workflow would look similar.

Speaker 2: 28:42

So that's what I was doing and that was going well, but there was just there just wasn't quite enough pressure for it to be as meaningful as I would like it. And I also was aware that the most enjoyment I'd had investing was when I was investing alongside a group of people and we'd have a winner and you could ring up and you know, sort of celebrate it and that's what you can miss as a private investor. You know, football is a higher pressure environment than most people would think. You know to perform your task in front of 80,000 people, 100,000 people live, and then have I don't know a million people watching on the screen judging your every move.

Speaker 1: 29:32

In the papers during the week.

Speaker 2: 29:34

In the papers you make an error, then you're wearing it on Monday night and social media and a bad day in the AFL isn't your portfolio down 2%, it's being driven to hospital with an injury that you're then going to be wearing for the rest of your life. You know, like I remember I met with a big wealth group when I started the fund and they said you know you're going to have some bad days. Like how are you going to cope with a bad day when the market's crashing and it's like, well, you know, bad day in the old job is you're being driven to hospital with a traumatic brain injury. Or, you know, your leg snapped in half, like I think.

Speaker 1: 30:12

I'll be all right.

Speaker 2: 30:14

Relative bad days, not so bad, yeah, like we'll be okay, and so, yeah, I think that sort of perspective has been useful as well.

Speaker 1: 30:26

No, that's good. So you've obviously successfully transitioned to your current position. What advice would you give for someone that is maybe nearing the end of their professional sports and maybe looking to transition but doesn't know what to transition to? Now we've seen, unfortunately, people that are professional sports people people I've spoken to. Now we've seen, unfortunately, people that are professional sports people people I've spoken to maybe feel like they lack a bit of purpose. So what advice would you give to people that are nearing the end of their career, whether it be forced because of injury or maybe because their performance is not the level it needs to be to continue on and get an extra year's contract?

Speaker 2: 31:05

Yeah, I think it's good to get going with something while you're still playing football, because people really be much more inclined to help at that stage of your career. And then I think it's important they're doing something they're suited to. So to not just do something because their parents said they should do it or because people they look up to that's what they're good at. To actually understand what you're skilled at more so than what you like, because if you're good at something, you're going to end up liking it. I think that's really important. I don't think people often have a clear understanding of what their actual skills are. And then that idea of actually starting your own thing to not go too early at that because that's hard Like start your own business, start your own fund, whatever it is. I just think you want to really be ready for that, because if you rush in too early and you're not certain that's what you really like or that's what you're good at, you know you're pot committed then and you've got to find a way to make it work. So get going early. Know what you're pot committed then, and you've got to find a way to make it work. So get going early, know what you're good at.

Speaker 2: 32:13

I think guys that have extended breaks after their footy career can be challenging. You know, they have six months off to travel and that turns into a year and that turns into 18 months. I think that's a bit dangerous. So to sort of get going and to also be give yourself a bit of patience, you're not going to know. So the idea that the first thing you're going to do after footy is going to be right, it's not how it works. You know a really good transition. You've been mucking around for three years trying lots of different things and then eventually it becomes clear no, this is what I'm suited to, this is what I'm good at, this is what I'm interested in. Don't expect that's going to happen after six months, but you need to get going early so you can start drawing the line through different things and get closer to be doing what you should be doing.

Speaker 1: 33:02

And I guess it's okay if you try something and it doesn't work out.

Speaker 2: 33:05

Big time. So I mean, that's the challenge footy players have, because they've often got a high profile and people being what they are, there'll be plenty of people rooting for them to fail. If someone without a profile tries a new venture and it doesn't work out, no one outside of their immediate friends group knows. You've just got to get over that potential ego cost and just get going and try things, and if it doesn't work out, who cares? Um, because the alternative is to not try anything. And then you're 20 years down the track and you you're bitter and twisted at those that that had a crack.

Speaker 1: 33:41

Yeah, so, and is there any? Do you have a mentor currently, or someone a couple of people that have influenced your career? Someone you've looked up of people that have influenced your career, someone you've looked up to that's helped shape your career both as a footballer but also as a finance professional?

Speaker 2: 33:56

No, like I've got lots of people I speak to, truckloads that I speak to and learn off, and lucky enough to mix with a lot of smart people from different walks of life but I don't have a formalised mentor or anything. Different walks of life but I don't have a formalised mentor or anything, but they're certainly different friends or people I lean on for lots of different life lessons.

Speaker 1: 34:16

Yeah, and if people want to invest alongside you co-invest, can they do that? Yeah, absolutely, we're only open to wholesale investors.

Speaker 2: 34:25

They can go to our website, seredymacrofundcomau.

Speaker 1: 34:28

We'll share that on our socials as well.

Speaker 2: 34:30

And they can find our monthly reports, which gives you a bit of a feel of how we think about investing and how we've done, and they can follow performance and reports there and if it's something for them, they can get in touch.

Speaker 1: 34:39

Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure having you on the field and also off the field, which continues to grow, so we look forward to keeping an eye on the fund and thank you again. Thanks, fabian, cheers. Thanks, chris, really enjoyed that, cheers. Thank you All good to you now. That was really great. We stopped recording that one.