Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome to Finance Friends podcast and today we have Luke Jones. Luke, welcome, how are you today?

Speaker 2: 0:11

Well, thanks, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 0:13

Well, it's a pleasure. I've got to know you over the last couple of years and you've been able to successfully transition from being a professional rugby union player to work in finance. So let's start with that transition. How has it been?

Speaker 2: 0:29

Yeah, it's been really, really good. I mean, obviously, when we first caught up I was in the job searching mode introduced by Chris Clayton from L1 and, yeah, everything moved very, very quickly from there. So I had a neck injury that put my rugby career a little short. I probably could. I should still be playing at the age I am I'm only 33 at the moment but thankfully, during rugby I put a big emphasis on studying and I think I learned that early on through the Western Force and playing for them for the first season. A lot of those guys were always studying. There was a lot of balance, I think, in rugby back then and, like I said, big emphasis on something outside of rugby. So I studied business at that point, switched to commerce and then realized I like financial planning and now have one subject to go to finish my Master's in financial planning.

Speaker 1: 1:30

Yeah, so you talk about the big emphasis on studying at the Western Falls. Yeah, how old were you at that point and how much of that is player-led, individual-led. So players as a collective-led, individual-led or the club-led?

Speaker 2: 1:49

Yeah, I think I would say back then. It's a combination of everything. So I think the player influence is probably first and foremost, and there were a lot of players there that were heavily focused and a little bit older and already thinking about the next part of the process. And you know, you regularly get told in rugby this isn't forever. You know you've got to come up with a plan B and it could happen at any time. You know, a quote from one of my good friends, scott Higginbotham, is you know, play every game like it's your last because it could be you could get injured. You know, from the game tomorrow, from a training session, and then all of a sudden, if you don't have somewhat an insurance policy which is a backup in the workforce, then you're going to be stuck right. And in saying that, like, say, you do have a fulfilling career and I think I did, in the sense that I had played 14 years professionally- yeah, and what would be the average career length of a rugby player?

Speaker 1: 2:54

Would it be less than that?

Speaker 2: 2:56

Yeah, I would say it's probably between six to seven. Like there are so many players that I know that had to end early through injury and there are some that do very well and they'll continue on up to probably 39, which is incredible.

Speaker 1: 3:12

Such a physically demanding sport.

Speaker 2: 3:15

Yeah, it makes it tricky. So I think, scott, you know you've always got to have some sort of idea of what you want to do outside, because, okay, let's say it is what's for me for the 14 years professionally. You know I'm only 33 now, that's you still have a long time to go before, you know, you retire. And you know it's a little naive to think, you know, I'm just going to play rugby, I'm going to make enough money and then that's me done. I think that you've really got to. You know, it depends on personality. So some would stay in rugby and love rugby, so much to the point where they would then study, you know, coaching and start getting involved in that side of the business and, you know, as their body would break down. There was even some hybrid contracts where some players would be available when they could, but they'd also be involved in the coaching side too.

Speaker 1: 4:13

Was that ever a consideration for you, transitioning into rugby not as a player, but as maybe a coach or, as you know, within the media?

Speaker 2: 4:23

Yeah, it wasn't really for me. With the media stuff, I never really well. Firstly, I think the media is really for those guys Unless you're, you know, absolutely incredible at it. I think it's reserved for those who are the absolute stars, and as it should be. That's what drives interest. But for myself I thought, um, you know, continuing on and being a coach or something along those lines, it just didn't interest me enough. You know, I did see the coaching staff and that, the hours they would have to do, and I just didn't get that same satisfaction out of rugby as the way they did. So for me, I would always. You know, some guys would say I would be first in, first out. It wasn't always along those lines. I was more of a I want to be there, be effective, get what I can out of this and go and spend time with my family or spend time working on something outside, because that's what got the best out of my rugby.

Speaker 1: 5:29

Yeah, and it's often that you hear from professional sports people that they get the best out of their career when they've actually got a young family and they get purpose outside of sport. So, like you said, come in, do what you need to do and ultimately get out so you can spend time with family outside of sport. So, like you said, come in, do what you need to do and ultimately get out. So, you can spend time with family or pursue interests elsewhere.

Speaker 2: 5:50

Yeah, definitely. And you know, on a Wednesday, which would be technically our day off, that would be our Saturday, sunday I'd often bring my kids in because they were at a great age where, you know, they weren't at school Kreish was here and there so then I would bring the kids in. They used to love um coming in. There'd be massages on that day, or there'd be guys watching some footage from training or games and um, they'd meet all the staff and and throw a ball around. So it's nice to have those experiences. But I I wish that, I wish I could have continued on for a few more years, just because they're now at that age where they say, oh, I really wish you were doing that, dad. Like we're now, you know, 9, 7, and we've just had our newborn daughter named Elodie, so she's four months old. But the older kids, they're now at that age where they're like come on, dad, like can't you just like put the boots back on, let's go watch you play rugby.

Speaker 1: 6:46

And how much you're talking about your children, and they are quite young, yeah, but how much time do you talk to them about? You know what they want to do in their career, whether it be professional sport, or would it be, you know, a profession outside of sport, or maybe a combination of two, throughout their journey.

Speaker 2: 7:04

Yeah, look, I think it's probably too early in the piece, but I've always thought extracurricular is really important, whatever it is. It doesn't have to be sport. It could be a musical instrument, like my daughter's doing piano. They both do basketball. Basketball seems to be the number one sport in Melbourne. I think that's down to a few reasons, one being the fact that the hoop height's lower for the lower ages, and then it's indoor, which is what we all need down here in miserable winter Melbourne. So, yeah, look, it's certainly not a. It's not a. Let's find a way to put you in a professional sport. It's a. What's your interest? How much do you enjoy it? And then let's find some drive from that. Like, my daughter is loving reading, reading books so quickly, so you know she might be academic. My wife's studying medicine she's already talking about and so my father-in-law's a vascular surgeon. So, um, I can see her brain already ticking over saying I want to work with mom, like she might work with, you know, my granddad, you know that's that's the.

Speaker 2: 8:17

That's where she's looking at as a nine-year-old, so I guess it's play it by ear don't leave every door open at this point, and then we'll see what they want to do from there.

Speaker 1: 8:29

Yeah, no, that's really insightful. So it's interesting because it probably comes back to you when you were maybe not nine, but maybe 14 or 15 and playing rugby at school. Yeah, so at what point in your juvenile life did you realise that professional sport is likely and that you're going to allocate the majority of your time to becoming a professional sports person?

Speaker 2: 8:55

Yeah, I'll take it back a step. So, growing up, I think I was five I wanted to play rugby. My father played rugby and I thought, oh, that looks like fun, I want to get involved in a rough sport like that. At that stage I didn't even have under fives, I had under seven, so I barely touched the ball all season and it was more a case of just running around and feeling like I was amongst it. Then all my friends played soccer.

Speaker 2: 9:22

I played soccer and then it got to a stage where, you know, I felt like I outgrew soccer, excuse me, um. And then, you know, rugby became an option to play club. So I played, uh, club rugby at say, would have been like 10 10 years old. And then, yeah, continuing that, I went to some pious St Pius in Sydney and that was the sport that they played, which was rugby. Not that we were by any means amazing at it. We actually had an amazing group that we could play that played pretty well, and one of the guys in that team was Michael Hooper. So we went to school together and played through all the ranks together.

Speaker 1: 10:04

So similar, same age.

Speaker 2: 10:06

Same age, same age, like he would play seven. I'd play the sixth or second row, usually thrown in the second row because I was quite tall. But, yeah, played throughout and I really never saw it as a professional job, I would say, up until I was 16. So it wasn't like it wasn't something that I'd actually considered to be a pathway or anything like that. It was just something I really enjoyed. And what I found the most satisfying was always playing at the next level as one, a challenge with two. I felt more comfortable and felt like it was more exciting and more intense and the pressure was on further and that's something I really thrived in.

Speaker 2: 10:51

So I probably didn't get picked very often in the lower age groups Playing Gordon Juniors I was typically never in which was the representative side of the club rugby system in the North Shore of Sydney. So I yeah, it wasn't until I was 16 that I actually made the Australian merit team that is named that side, and from there that was when I really found a drive to go okay, this might be a job, this might be something I want to pursue, but at the same time I knew my studies were still important and, funnily enough, I didn't take school too serious up until probably 16, 17. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:35

Well, I guess, like most people Like most people, yeah, especially boys All you want to do is play sport. There's nothing new yet there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. So, and how important was having Michael Hooper? Was he a gun as a?

Speaker 2: 11:50

Always.

Speaker 1: 11:51

So having him to obviously play with and obviously set a high standard, did that help you with your development?

Speaker 2: 12:00

Yeah, I think he was always very, very good. I think he was always very, very good and the guys in our under 16, 15, 16, whatever age group it was that year we used to win most competitions. I think that probably played a part. It was a very competitive group and everyone was striving to outachieve each other and the coach at the time would always put up a ranking system for everyone to see how they performed that week and it was pretty strict. So, yeah, I think that probably played a part to that as well.

Speaker 2: 12:37

But it then came a time where I started to really enjoy playing in the older age groups and trying to challenge myself to play above my age. So I was 15, I was trying to play under 17s for St Ives. Uh, when I was, when I was 16, I went straight to the first for school and didn't continue on with that group and really loved playing against older kids and and, yeah, like said, I thoroughly enjoyed trying to challenge that and trying to challenge play with groups who were much older than me and got great satisfaction out of trying to dominate those guys.

Speaker 1: 13:14

And at what age were you when you received your first professional contract and can you share some details of that contract?

Speaker 2: 13:21

Yeah, yeah, sure, so it was funny. So Hooper and I were both. We actually have the same agent. His name's Andrew Fairburn. He identified both of us when we were in. I believe it was either an under-16s championship, national championship, and we both signed with him. We both had options to go to the Waratahs or to the Brumbies and the Western Forth. It was called a pro academy contract, so call it maybe 15, 16 grand, but they'll put you up and if you play a few games, you know it's sort of the usual process for that age group. So how old? At this point we would have been 17.

Speaker 1: 14:10

Okay.

Speaker 2: 14:11

So we were in like year 11. This is the conversation for when we finish year 12, what we would do after that. So the options were all quite the same. The Brumbies had the best program. So we were both leaning towards the Brumbies. None of us, we weren't very interested in joining the Waratahs At that stage.

Speaker 2: 14:33

The Waratahs was very much a you do your time. You know, it didn't feel like we would ever get a go. It just felt like we would be part of the system. And we saw that with a few other guys who were just cogs in the wheel and it was more or less do your time, whereas the Brumbies and the Western Force were if you're ready, we'll throw you in. So that was appealing to us. On the back of that and on the back of the Western Force, learning that I was leaning towards the Brumbies, they upped the deal of the. The western force, learning that I was leaning towards the brumbies, they upped the deal to the rookie contract, which was you know, I don't know, probably double the money and you know you were actually part of the main squad.

Speaker 2: 15:14

So that immediately got my attention and and I knew there was a lot of great talent over there, like james o'connor was there at the time uh, nathan sharp. Nathan sharp was someone was someone that I'd watched very closely over the years and he was a captain of Australia and did some incredible things for rugby and I still keep in touch with him on and off to this day and was a great mentor. So it made sense for me. They flew me over, they flew my parents over, they showed me how it worked. They had one of the I guess one of the supporters, main supporters of the club. He had me stay with them for, however long it took me to get on my feet.

Speaker 2: 15:58

So pretty daunting to go from, I guess, the east coast to the west coast, when it's quite a faraway spot, like it does feel like its own country. But I, you know, loved it immensely and thought the people there are lovely, perth's a great spot. The team were very good and we had a lot of injuries that year, which meant I got to play four games for the Western Force, which was pretty cool at 18 years old.

Speaker 1: 16:27

Yeah, so going from a student playing with mates to becoming a professional sports person, yeah. What were the biggest learnings for you for that transition?

Speaker 2: 16:36

I think the biggest learnings for me and if anyone who was part of that, I think I walked in and thought, you know I've captained a few teams in the school level. So I captained my school, captained New South Wales schools. You know was a leader of the Australian school boys team that travelled two years in a row and I walked in and I remember the first line-out session or, you know, forward session and you know I'm there making comments in the team huddle, thinking that you know I'm in a position to be talking but realistically, I should have just been listening and learning and you know a lot of those guys would make jokes about that, like throughout the year and still this day they laugh about that moment that I thought it was appropriate for me just to throw my two bob in, but the you know it was an incredible experience and like just going to, honestly, the best thing about going to Western First was going there. All the guys were very, including they would bring me along to coffees and catch-ups and I would just sit there and they would talk about such interesting things Like it wasn't. They were very engaging conversations about.

Speaker 2: 17:57

You know what are we doing from? How are we improving the game. You know how are we improving, how we're looked after as players. What are we improving the game? You know how are we improving, how are we looked after as players. What are we doing outside? It was quite an eye-opener to see. You'd expect players just to be talking about I don't know, just very mediocre conversations. But rugby unions always had the luxury, I guess, of it being a private school dominated environment and yeah, I feel like that showed through a lot of the conversations outside of rugby.

Speaker 1: 18:32

And is that what sparked your interest in business and commerce?

Speaker 2: 18:36

Yeah, I think it definitely played a part. Definitely played a part. I think that, plus my parents always trying to push that and my grandmother always pushing that, there's something more to rugby and you've got you guys to study as well. At that stage I was just studying business and thought you know that that's the direction I want to go down, and I was more of a box ticketer at that point.

Speaker 2: 19:03

It probably wasn't until maybe three or four years later that I started to realize and also sorry, going to the Rebels and having another group of guys who were the average age then would have been like 29. It was an old group and that's what was needed because it was inaugural season and they brought in a lot of heavyweights and a lot of guys who were at the sort of end of their career but had a great name for themselves. So guys like Al Campbell, who, quite successful outside of rugby as he was in, and a bit of a journeyman like myself, played in France for some time, played for the Wallabies a little bit, so not too dissimilar to myself. Also, another tall guy, locke, same position. So as much as he taught me a lot about rugby, he taught me a lot about what I should be doing outside of rugby.

Speaker 2: 19:59

So I think that there's always been a great level of support for that inside and outside rugby. I think that just comes always been a great level of support for that inside and outside rugby. I think that just comes from the players more than anything because you know the coaching staff will say you know we need you to do stuff outside. I did find the older I got and the more professional rugby became and the more pressure I believe coaches are under for performance, the less they focused on what we were doing outside. It was how much can we get you to come into the club and how much can we get you to live rugby like we do? Because as coaches we're here 24 7 and we don't see the same from the players. But I've found it's hard to break down.

Speaker 1: 20:45

There is a balance that's needed yeah, well, ultimately a coach is, is their performance is judged on the, the team's performance 100 they're not judged on how well you're doing outside and have a successful career outside of rugby. So you know it's. There is a. You know you are a professional sports person, you're a professional coach and their job is to get the best out of the team, but your job is to also be mindful around. What is the? What is the plan beyond professional sport? 100%, yeah definitely.

Speaker 2: 21:18

But I do think that the pressure has been mounting and I think that if I just take it back 14 years from the Western Force to the first year of the Rebels to now, it definitely ramped up. You know, like when I came back to the Rebels and everybody was in the club on the day off, I think that was when I thought, wow, this is not the excuse me, this is not the environment that I've been a part of previously or seen.

Speaker 1: 21:52

so yeah you talk about environment and I want to pivot the conversation a little bit Sure. You talk about environment and I want to pivot the conversation a little bit Sure. Environment in a professional as a professional sports person seems very structured. You know where you need to be, when you need to be, maybe nutrition as well, recovery, et cetera Whereas as a professional in financial services would you say it's less structured. And how have you been able to adapt from a very structured environment to maybe a less structured?

Speaker 2: 22:30

environment? Yeah, that's a good question. I would say you're right, it is less structured. I would say you're right, it is less structured, it's more. There's a more onus on yourself me to go out there and find meetings, especially in a BDM role, to, you know, drum up new business and find, you know, find funds for the new deal we're doing, or to, I guess, build a network that you can then rely on for raising capital on syndicates that we're looking at at Faulkner Property. So it's much more of a you have to take the ownership.

Speaker 2: 23:09

It's on you, whereas I believe that early days of rugby or sorry, when you're not a leader in rugby, it's very much a here's the schedule, here's this, here's that. But as you become a leader in those clubs, you know you have more of a say on right. Well, this is how we should do it and this is what we can benefit from. And I think it comes more naturally towards the end of rugby where your opinion does count, because you have such good experience in rugby. Your opinion does count because you have such good experience in rugby and you're taking that. You're taking your experience and you're taking your views and you're turning it into a leader aspect of the team and so, as much as it is all structured, and here's your passport.

Speaker 2: 23:57

They give you your passport, they give you everything and, um, I was always very much, uh, I like to have my opinion, I like to, I like to be able to, to take charge of things, and if I have an opinion of how I think something will work and how we can get the best out of the team, I wasn't afraid to say to a trainer or a high-performance coach or the head coach or the forwards coach and say, hey, this is how we should run the line out this week, this is how we're going to beat them in this regard. Or I think that we've probably over-trained the start of the week. I think if we back off the back of the end of the week, we will freshen up for this match, or there's been a longer turnaround. So I think you could really get stuck into us in this part of the week.

Speaker 1: 24:44

So not too dissimilar to corporate life where you know when you are a graduate right.

Speaker 2: 24:48

It's very structured.

Speaker 1: 24:49

This is what you do, but as you become a leader you start to influence the structure and the direction and the strategy of the business.

Speaker 2: 24:57

Yeah, exactly right, fabian, it's exactly right. So I think that if you were to end your career short and you've only played five to seven years I think you'd feel a little bit fish out of water and I think you would struggle. I think it would be a struggle. I think even then there's still a lot of players who are mercenaries and they'll get to the end of their career and you know, the best thing they can do and provide for the team is just, honestly, to work hard and take direction. So I don't think that necessarily. You know, this job is for everyone and a lot of my teammates inside and outside rugby, you know, do struggle or are doing a completely different path to what I'm doing.

Speaker 1: 25:42

Yeah, and what advice would you give to someone that is maybe your 21-year-old self? Yeah, yeah, maybe just paint a picture where you're a 21, and what advice would you give to yourself a 21, that you know now as a 33 year old, that's, you know, having a successful career within financial services?

Speaker 2: 26:02

yeah, I would think sometimes I was probably a little bit opinionated and I thought that I could offer an opinion on things that were probably a little bit out of my reach for in terms of where the team should go and how we should do things, whereas there was so much abundance of opinions and I guess it was on the other side of that there was always a lot of guys in that team at the Rebels at the start, who were older heads and everybody had an opinion, which I think you need a balance of young guys to old guys. I think we eventually got that. But I think more or less soak it up, listen and take in everything, write notes, walk away from coffees and write down a couple of things you learned. I think it's probably the main thing I would suggest is always having a notepad, and it's not always just for I would suggest is always having a notepad, and it's not always just for rugby, it could be for anything. You might hear something in conversation and go.

Speaker 2: 27:05

I find that really interesting. I'll write that down, find out some more information on that later. It could be a number of things, but I think soak it up early on and train as hard as possible. I think you get a lot more respect from your peers by just putting your head down, bum up and going as hard as possible with training and then outside, and then so going further through the career, you start reaping the benefits of you know, learning from those guys and taking on that information and, like I said, soaking up information and, before you know it, you're now one of the older guys and some of the young guys look towards you and I think that's a real opportunity for you then to try and pass that wisdom that you've received onto them, and I think if you can do that, I think you'll have a pretty successful career in whatever you do after.

Speaker 1: 28:05

Yeah, and at what age were you when you decided that? Well, obviously you mentioned previously around having an injury, which sort of played your cards for you, but you must have been thinking in advance of that injury where you'd go next.

Speaker 2: 28:22

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1: 28:23

So when was that? Was there a specific point in time? Well, it seems like you've just evolved from joining the force at a young age, but was there a specific point in time where you realised what you wanted to do and when that would likely take place?

Speaker 2: 28:40

yeah, good question. So, like I said, started studying business, didn't know what I wanted to do. I started in sports management but I didn't have enough love for the, for sport, to really warrant going into that after rugby. So I quickly pivoted and thought, right, right, it looks like I enjoy finance. I became a little bit self-obsessed with my own portfolio and what I was doing because, you know, I was always conscious of the fact that. You know, rugby is a short window. You make some great money. What do you do with that to try and set yourself up so that you're in a pretty strong position as you finish?

Speaker 2: 29:19

So, you know, through the years of investing in, you know commercial, not commercial, my property and residential property, investment properties. You know ETFs, the markets, equities, all of that, and then other businesses along the way. All of that and then other businesses along the way. So, from that starting commerce, not really knowing about financial planning and what that was, but realising I was kind of doing a version of it, an unadvised version of it I then started doing subjects in commerce that related to financial planning and that's when it really struck and I would say that's probably 20, that's probably 26. So up until then I didn't know what I wanted to do, which is quite um. I always find it quite hard for those who aren't in professional sport, who are just doing a degree and not not exactly knowing what to do next. I think it's so tough to know what exactly it is that makes you drive. It gives you drive and I feel like when you finish school, as you're finishing school, it's like what do you want to do? What do you want to do? I think we we put a lot of pressure on on the youth to come up with that answer really quickly and you can see people pivot pretty quickly and you know it's very difficult to know what you want to do. But so fast forward to 26, 27,.

Speaker 2: 30:47

I started focusing more on financial planning and finished my degree in commerce and then started my master's in financial planning. I could have done another master's, but I thought I was very much if this is what I want to do, and I knew at this stage that you know the industry of financial services was going through a very big transition, with the Royal Commission and you know a lot of advisors stepping out and there being a huge undersupply of advisors in the country. So I felt like that was a great position for me, just to double down and and continue on with the masters rather than, um, putting eggs in different baskets. So so it was at that point that I actually um, so we'll fast forward again. So that's when I knew I wanted to be a financial advisor, which is not what I'm doing now. But I originally applying at Garno Private Wealth to be, you know, involved in their business, involved as a, you know, first year, and you probably know this.

Speaker 2: 31:55

You have to do associate professional year, first year, and you probably know this you have to do associate professional year. But, as we all know, it's a tough slog to start and, fortunately enough for me, pat Scarno, who is my boss, approached me and said you could do that. It's going to be a tough slog. You're going to have to go through absolute, you know some turmoil to get to where you want to be and you know I hear that a lot from advisors, because the great thing is about my job is I get to meet everyone. Now I get to meet all the advisors of the industry and it is. It's a tough slog to start but there's some great benefit, you know, if you're good at it and you put enough time into it. Having a young family. His suggestion was come and start with us as a business development manager. You will raise capital. It's going to be very exciting and dynamic. You're going to meet everyone in the financial services industry and you'll hit the ground running and we can reassess down the track.

Speaker 1: 33:00

Yep and you've had a quite a smooth transition from what I've seen, and we've caught up a few times in the last couple of years. So what has been the difficulties in your current role or biggest learnings over the last couple of years?

Speaker 2: 33:17

I think the biggest learning yeah, and look, it was a really tough first six months, like, as an example and this is back to everything being handed to you in rugby had never sent an email invite. So been sent you know a stack, or actually been just been sent templates of what the days look like and what your month look like, but never actually had to send an invite. It was always just a text message of I'll meet you there. Yeah, um, and patch started introducing me to a couple of their BDMs, so they showed me the ropes and then he said just just send them an email invitation. I said I don't know what you're talking about. So it was a steep learning curve. Despite all the studies in the world you can do, nothing will prepare you for a real job.

Speaker 1: 34:14

Yeah, it's almost that corporate culture transition, yeah, which you learn as maybe a 22 year old graduate.

Speaker 2: 34:21

Correct, but you're expected to know as a 31 year old professional, correct, but luckily, you know, through his mentorship and through a lot of the guys in the office who were willing to put the time into me, picked it up quick enough. It helps that you're a good bloke. Yeah, hopefully that's what they say. And yeah, picked it up pretty quickly, I believe. And yeah, look, I think that expectation of, I guess, coming in and learning quickly on that front. And then the other one was, I guess, not realising how much money is in the system and how much private money you know is within that, I guess that wholesale space, which is what we focus on, and you know, an expectation of raising. I believe it was 30 mil. My first year.

Speaker 2: 35:23

That number just went straight over my head in terms of I was in a little bit disbelief of how am I supposed to achieve this and what does this actually look like? Mind you, though, so patch sent through this is leading into the job, and I guess this is probably what I pride myself on when I entered Faulkner. So I went through the interview process with him and his old man, chris. Chris is the founder and owner of the business. They sent through all the trust updates for all the trusts that we have, and I'll just try to make it clear. So we're a commercial property syndicate and we're an unlisted closed trust and we're up to trust number 31 now, but at the time we're up to trust number 21.

Speaker 1: 36:14

Yeah, so for our listeners, you effectively buy an asset, a property, and then you raise capital to settle that property, and then the investors invest in that property and then they receive distributions and then, if you sell that property at a later point in time, any capital gain they'll receive in addition to that.

Speaker 2: 36:33

It's all equal structured units. There's no preference units or anything. So the founders are the largest investors. They put in 10% to 15% in every deal we do and we now have about $3.6 billion in assets and management. When I joined, we were sitting at just over two.

Speaker 1: 36:52

Wow. So we've had a busy eight, nine months.

Speaker 2: 36:54

It's almost doubled within two years.

Speaker 1: 36:56

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 36:56

And there's been huge opportunities at those shopping centres that are daily needs focused, so non-discretionary, and they're sort of between, let's call it, 100 to 500 mil.

Speaker 2: 37:07

There's been a liquidity problem at that level and then there's been large institutions who needed redemption. So hence why we've been extremely active, hence why we've been extremely active. So, if I take it back, so joining and this is the expectation of coming in it was to raise if we had a syndicate and, like you said, it's usually a two to three month window and the benefit that we offer is usually the best terms. But we'll try and offer the lowest price possible we can at that price so we can try and achieve an IRR of, say, 15% or above. That's the catalyst of a deal for us. Now this is where it gets interesting, because we offer the best terms and because it's usually there's never a subject capital raise, so the pressure's on to raise the money. So I love that aspect because it's very similar to rugby. It felt like when we're in raise mode it feels like I'm in a rugby game and it feels like every.

Speaker 1: 38:08

You've got 80 minutes to get the best result, yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:11

And so it'll be a case of we've got to raise 50 mil, we've got to raise 100 mil, we've got to raise 200 mil, We've got to raise 50 mil, we've got to raise 100 mil, we've got to raise 200 mil. We've got two months to get the funds allocated, money in, application forms in, and we'll settle, yeah, in two to three months. From that point. So it's pretty exciting, when it's on, it's on and when it's off it's building the network for the next one, and so I love that aspect of it.

Speaker 2: 38:38

So when I joined, it would have been three or four weeks in and they were like we've bought this property settlement city in Port Macquarie, we need you to raise 10 mil. And I was. Thankfully, there was a portion of clients that I had been given and there was an expectation that I was going to bring on some new clients. I would say the initial raising percentage would have been, say, 80% existing and 20% new. And you know, the more I got my feet on the desk, the more time in the saddle that percentage became better and better in favour of new funds and new groups that I was talking to, and there's nothing more satisfying of getting that onboarded new client that you've established through your own network and been referred to from someone that you know, and there's nothing better than that.

Speaker 1: 39:39

And is that what you most enjoy about your job?

Speaker 2: 39:41

Yeah, definitely, that's definitely the biggest benefit of the job, I believe, is finding capital from your own network or established through your own prospecting and cold calling and you know so forth, yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:03

And, as we look up to wrap up this conversation, I've really enjoyed it. One thing that fascinates me is your identity. Obviously, you've been known as a professional sports person for 14 years. You've been known as a professional sports person for 14 years played for the Wallabies, played in France, played in Melbourne, played in Perth and then transitioned into a finance professional, where you want to be taken seriously as a finance professional, but maybe people still identify you as a rugby professional. Yeah, how has been the transition to change your identity and being now respected as a finance professional versus a rugby professional? Are you talking me through that journey?

Speaker 2: 40:48

It's a good question. Um, I don't think that I had to change my persona or change my appearance in terms of wearing a suit, but I didn't have to change a whole stack of things, I think you know, definitely, starting the job was daunting and coming on board was certainly a challenge, and it's still challenging. It should be challenging. That's why we do it. If we didn't have challenges, we would become complacent and it would become too repetitive. And I think that's the great thing about rugby is that you're always looking for what's next and what's next for how to grow and how to become better. And I walk away from meetings still and go what could I have done better there? And I do treat it like a game in that respect. But to answer your question would what have I? Yeah, the persona thing, like it's really been the same thing.

Speaker 2: 41:51

It's, I guess, yeah, asking different questions and structuring questions and answers to find out more I can about those investors and see what they're looking for to invest in and you know how do they look at their overall portfolio and what aspect of that is income driven and what aspect of that is capital growth and then how much are they allocating to property as opposed to, because you know, as you know, as Australians, we all love our residential property, so some can be pretty overweight in that market already. So then it's, you know what else, what is it they're looking for as an investment? And I guess it's something that sometimes I guess from my parents it's always been a taboo conversation of talking about finances so openly and so um forthcoming. But that's you don't. You don't improve in that area without sharing those answers and and sharing your own position.

Speaker 2: 42:50

And I've certainly shared my views and and how I and I speak to it with a lot of players who are still playing and I get phone calls all the time from I get a lot of phone calls from players who are still playing and they ask you know, how are you going? Because you know, to be quite frank, there are a lot of guys who are struggling. And that's not to say I'm not having days where I'm certainly searching and trying to find what I can get out of it. But I think writing down goals and writing down goals is important, but also writing down a to-do list for the day, the week, the month and mapping that out. I think that certainly helps and gives good direction. I think direction is probably key, from someone who's been giving their passport to a team manager for 14 years.

Speaker 1: 43:44

Yeah, because it is. You know it can be easy to lose a sense of purpose. You know, when you're used to being in the media and everyone acknowledging you and knowing who you are and wanting to get your autograph, and kids coming up to you. All of a sudden, then you retire from that sport and you transition or create your next career. What is that? What does that mean? Am I as valued as I started? I was the top of the top and now, all of a sudden, I'm asking how to set the calendar in fire. I feel a little bit useless. So it is. It's a transition. It is, and it's just a matter of being okay with not knowing everything and learning.

Speaker 2: 44:26

Yeah, and I'd say I lean on my wife, maddie, heavily for a soundboard and someone to talk to through this. Like I'll give you a real example Last night, you know I couldn't sleep and you know you start thinking about rugby and like there was times there where I certainly didn't miss the training and I certainly didn't miss some of the meetings which I would find counterproductive. If we would be sitting there for, say, an hour and a half or two hours and you know the attention span of players is probably, I would say, 30, 40 minutes at best. So you'd have guys who are I always give the example of. We'd walk away from a meeting and I'm like what are three things that you could take out of that meeting? And a lot of players would struggle to. And that was more the club aspect or the professional club aspect, not the Wallaby International level where guys are just completely on the meetings are. You know, it's just a higher level. So there's a lot more on the line.

Speaker 2: 45:35

But I would say that with going through rugby and going through that, like I said, like with my wife, there are times where I do feel like what am I doing?

Speaker 2: 45:51

You know I miss rugby, I miss playing especially, and sometimes I feel like I have no purpose. Or you know you just you feel like you're off the, off the path, or you know it feels obviously very foreign. It's it's two years into. You know the, the, the next part of your life, next chapter, sorry, next chapter, whereas you know you've just been in a 14 year stint where you've lived in France for five years, in a 14-year stint where you've lived in France for five years and that was a big one for us where we lived in Bordeaux and Paris. So there are times where you definitely need someone to talk to regularly and I think that if players don't have that in a partner or if they're not married, and I think speaking to someone outside professionally is probably a pretty smart option, because I still think, despite and not to sound, trying to sound humble, but like someone who's transitioned well, there's still times where I'm still finding challenges.

Speaker 1: 46:50

So I think it's okay to not feel great. Oh, totally I don't feel. Sometimes I wake up in the morning and feel like I really want to do what I do. Right. And then I get here. I love what I do, but you do go through those. You know mental battles and I think most people do to just get up and to perform at that elite level.

Speaker 2: 47:07

Yeah, and and you know I said the exact quote I said last night was the biggest qualm I had was I'd feel sore going home Cause I train all day. I know what I have to do the next day. It's going to be sore, it's going to be this. Then I got, you know, the weekly process and now at the moment I'm not even training because my wife's studying medicine and those hours are just ridiculous. And now we've got three kids. So it's a real balance at the moment it's just trying to find time to get back into the gym or get back into some sort of activity, because I do think that really helps your mental health. And, yeah, I probably need to start running and doing something again.

Speaker 1: 47:51

We can go for a run together, mate.

Speaker 2: 47:52

Yeah, we'll do the 10 after this.

Speaker 1: 47:54

Yeah, that's great. And the last question I have for you is is there someone that comes to mind of big influence on your professional career, be it rugby, but also professional career and financial services?

Speaker 2: 48:09

now, I'd say there's probably two. One would be my father-in-law, who played for the Wallabies, played part of the 84 Grand Slam winning team. He's a vascular surgeon, someone who has four kids I married the youngest of his four and he's always been a great sounding board and someone who's helped with a lot of rugby. But then in the transition period where he lives in Melbourne as well, and up until a few weeks ago I was training with him, but he trains at a stupid hour in my opinion, which is 6 am, which doesn't sound that early, but when you're someone who likes to stay up late and prefers to be a night owl as opposed to an early bird. But he's someone who you know, I can call it a drop of the hat and he'll always help me get through some things and offer a different perspective and pretty well-rounded bloke.

Speaker 2: 49:13

The other one would be and funnily enough so I met John Eales when I was maybe nine or ten, met him with my grandfather, who he bought two tickets to a luncheon where it was intimate, maybe 15 people and you know, met him, talked to him for a little bit and then it wasn't until I was probably in the Wallabies and saw him again and he recognised my name, you know, although generic, luke Jones, he still put two and two together and caught up with him on and off over the years. And you know, because John's very successful in rugby but outside rugby and John only has a degree in arts, he doesn't, he didn't go down the commerce path or you know, some sort of specific study like that, but you know he's an incredible leader and he's been involved with a number of boards.

Speaker 2: 50:14

So he's been on Magellan for years. He's on Flight Centre. He's involved with another couple of boards. So he's been on Magellan for years. He's on Flight Centre. He's involved in another couple of businesses and I used to catch up with him and we never talked rugby. Rarely would talk rugby. It would always be, you know, I'd ask him. I finished commerce, what do you think I should do next? What do you think I should study next? And you know, because he travels the world constantly and I was living in Paris, I was actually in London for a match and caught up in for breakfast for two hours. He always made the time to fit me in and then, since I've arrived back and joined Fork, he's been someone that I've caught up with several times and someone who's helped me with referrals and introducing me to some of his networks. So you know that's been. I would say he's been a mentor and so has my father-in-law to an extent. So those are two.

Speaker 1: 51:11

Well, thank you very much, Luke.

Speaker 2: 51:12

It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 51:13

I've enjoyed hearing your story, and I'm sure our listeners will too, and we wish you all the best in your second career within financial services. So thank you for coming in.

Speaker 2: 51:23

Yeah, it's nice to unpack it all and I probably haven't thought about it in depth as much as this. So thanks for asking so many provoking questions. So appreciate it, Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 51:33

Cheers, mate. Bye, that was great. I love that. Yeah, I'm mindful.