Speaker 1: 0:06

Welcome to the Finance Friends podcast. Whether you have followed us from the beginning or you're a new listener, we are excited to have you here. Finance Friends gives our listeners a seat at the table with successful finance industry leaders. Follow us on our socials at Finance Friends Podcast, linked in the description box of this episode, and stay tuned for weekly episode releases.

Speaker 1: 0:32

Today's episode we have Mark Olenek, who's a senior lecturer and course director of Deakin University in Melbourne in financial planning and Mark was my lecturer when I was at university many, many, many moons ago and sparked my interest in financial planning. And he talks about his journey from being an auditor and having to do stock take at a pub in Brunswick to becoming the lecturer he is today. Now he has seen many students rise from being students to very successful professionals and he provides us with his insights and secrets to growing your career and following your passion. Welcome, mark. How are you today? Good Thanks, fabian. Thanks very much for inviting me. Oh, you're welcome. I've known you for a long time. You're the reason why I started in financial planning all those years ago at La Trobe University when you were running the course there, but now you're at Deakin University. Is that right, mark?

Speaker 2: 1:33

Yes, that's right. Been there for about nine, coming up for my ninth year and 10-year anniversary next year, so I think that entitles me to a Deakin pin, a Deacon pin, a deacon pin.

Speaker 1: 1:45

So you're going to throw a party A deacon party.

Speaker 2: 1:49

Well, I don't know, I think the pin might be. You know, that's more than enough. What else would you want other than the deacon pin? So yeah, so that's a well, that's sort of a bit of an achievement.

Speaker 1: 2:01

So I've been there for quite a few years, but yeah, prior to that, la Trobe, and yeah, taught you there, yeah, and you've made a big impact on a lot of people that are currently in the financial planning profession, because there's a lot of people in our class that did an intro to financial planning. They ended up becoming financial advisors and without your passion and your support for the industry, I think a lot of people would have chosen a different career direction.

Speaker 2: 2:28

Yeah, so I don't know whether that's my influence or the fact that I've just been around for so many years with a number of students. But yeah, one of my son's best friends, he also did his financial planning degree at La Trobe. So I knew him at La Trobe and then didn't see him for years and suddenly I saw him at a tennis match and he joined the club and he said oh, and I didn't exactly remember the face, but he sort of said, oh, hello, mark, how are you?

Speaker 2: 2:59

And I said oh, yeah, oh, I'm trying to remember where I know him from and yeah, so it turned out that I taught him at La Trobe and it did come back to me eventually and, as it turns out now he's one of my son's best friends and he's working as a paraplanner. Yeah, and yeah, he really enjoys the work.

Speaker 1: 3:18

Great. So your current title is Senior Lecturer and Course Director of Financial Planning at Deakin University, correct, yes, so what does that involve?

Speaker 2: 3:28

So we have different levels within a university. So I'm a Senior Lecturer and I suppose the work is fairly varied. So I suppose our requirements are covering three main areas. So obviously teaching and learning is a major part of what we do. So that's you know, preparing for classes, taking classes, lectures, seminars, assessment tasks and the boring work of marking.

Speaker 1: 3:56

But it has to be done. Marking by name, marking by nature yeah, that's right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:03

I'll leave that one Good choice, that was bad. And then sort of a scholarly work or research type work, and that might be academic writing, papers, journals, industry mags, industry submissions which I've done a few in my role within the Financial Planning Education Council, perhaps consulting with industry, and then service. So that service is, you know, sort of the normal admin stuff meetings, graduations, prize-giving events but also a large part of what I do is working with industry to help source opportunities for students. So it might be internships, graduate roles, guest lectures and potentially working with industry to obtain grants to do projects with industry. So that's sort of probably one of the major parts of what I do and which I really enjoy.

Speaker 1: 5:03

Yeah, and in terms of the core structure at Deakin, Deakin is a leader in financial planning studies. What are the sort of core parts that you cover within that course?

Speaker 2: 5:17

Me personally.

Speaker 1: 5:18

Well, as a course, let's just talk a little bit about the course because, if you know, we have people listeners that are thinking about financial planning. I want to study financial planning and Deakin is a leader in the field, so just run us through just a quick summary of the course.

Speaker 2: 5:34

So, just as a, perhaps in a broad way, first of all, so the requirements to be a financial planner consist of three main things. So you need to have an approved degree. So there is a government legislative instrument which details all the universities that have got an accredited, approved degree. So you need to do an approved degree. We can then discuss later on that. To become a financial planner you then need to do a national exam and thirdly, to do a professional year once you join a practice. So, but the first step is to get an approved degree. Some universities have a degree in financial planning, some degrees. Some unis have, which is more typical, a major in financial planning. So you did a major of financial planning at La Trobe, but we'll quickly, you know, skip La Trobe and bring it back to Deakin.

Speaker 3: 6:23

They don't offer it anymore. They don't offer it. No, that's right.

Speaker 2: 6:25

So when I left, they decided not to offer financial planning anymore.

Speaker 1: 6:29

When you lose the best in the business, it's hard to recover.

Speaker 2: 6:31

They probably thought thank goodness we got rid of him so we can now get rid of financial planning.

Speaker 2: 6:36

So at Deakin we've got an approved degree. So you come in and do a Bachelor of Commerce, which is a three-year degree, and within that you choose a financial planning major. So you need to have a deacon and approved role. In the Bachelor of Commerce you come in, the first year is generic. You try a little bit of everything accounting, finance, marketing, management just to give you a bit of a feel about the course. And then you choose your majors and one of them is financial planning major.

Speaker 2: 7:08

And the other good thing that we've introduced is compulsory internships or work integrated learning. So that's sort of now encouraging or forcing students that they have to do some sort of internship as part of their course, which is great, yeah, which is good. I'd encourage as many students as possible to do some sort of work integrated learning, and these days it's broad and really interesting. So in the old days it was an internship. You know you go and sit in a, you know, with a practice and work. But these days there's consulting projects, there's international study tours you can do. But I think still the best thing is to get some practical work experience. So if you're looking to move into financial planning or financial services. Go out and get a job, work part-time, because then you can sort of relate the theory to the practice, and the theory means a lot more when you kind of see how it works in practice.

Speaker 1: 7:58

And also you enjoy the theory a lot more when it's practical.

Speaker 2: 8:01

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1: 8:03

And I regularly have. You know, aspiring financial advisors that are studying come and see me and you know, find it really hard to get their first opportunity. You know what I say. Go look at your suburb financial planning firms. Go knock on the door and say you're happy to. You know, just do admin unpaid work for a day a week, yeah.

Speaker 2: 8:22

Just get your foot in the door. Yeah, I know. Work for a day a week? Yeah, just get your foot in the door, yeah, I know. Well, that's what I keep on telling students. We have a work integrated learning division that helps students find jobs and some students are a little bit more, you know, take initiative a little bit more. Some do it early, some leave it late, some need a bit of prodding, but it is so useful. But, yeah, you're right, go and knock on doors.

Speaker 2: 8:44

Network, speak to people and you see the ones that are successful. They're out there going to student events. They're talking to people, talking to friends, industry representatives and one of the students that I've had who recently graduated and has done really well. He was working in part-time in retail and he's a very outgoing bloke, just talking to retail and happened to be speaking to a person who was buying some stuff from the shop and it turned out to be, I think, the head of advice at Australian Super who said, oh, you know, and he spoke about his interest in financial planning and he said, oh, at some stage come and chat to me, which he did, and he got an internship and that led him on to a very successful role now in financial planning industry.

Speaker 1: 9:33

So, yeah, it's all about networking, getting out there, knocking on doors and trying to speak to people and what is really important is financial advice has become very technical because the education requirement and compliance standards Yep. The key skill to being a successful financial advisor is being able to build a relationship and trust with your client. Yeah, so if you're very technical but you lack the skills to engage, it's unlikely you're going to be very successful in advice. Yeah, so that's why it is important to, as you said, go and put yourself out there.

Speaker 2: 10:12

I mean different students, I think, mature at different stages. So some students are very confident very early on. They've got great communication skills, they're good at relationship building and you know they can progress in a financial planning practice and move ahead quite quickly. Others, I find, and I don't know where you fit in, but I think you were fairly confident and you know, obviously moved ahead very quickly. Others, I find, and I don't know where you fit in, but I think you were fairly confident and you know obviously moved ahead very quickly.

Speaker 2: 10:40

But others I think, mature a bit later and so they might be a little bit shy and a bit hesitant to network. But you know you get in and we all progress at different levels and at different stages and you know you might get in and it might take you two years or three years within a practice where you learn your craft and you learn the ropes and then you might be ready then to move ahead and you might have the confidence to then start sitting in front of a client and helping them with their life savings. But it just depends on the student. But yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:10

I think the quicker you can get into practice and see what's happening and learn from other advisors because there's really a lot of good ones out there the quicker I think that you'll get that confidence and the ability to you know build those relationships.

Speaker 1: 11:23

Yeah, definitely, and I'm a committee member of the FAAA Financial Advice Association of Australia and we, if you are a financial planning student, you can actually get free membership to the FAAA and we run events. So we're running an event. I think it's the 8th of May hopefully this podcast launches before then but we're running an event on, you know, eq and building trust and relationship with a client, and that's targeted to you know, the next generation of advisors, so something that you maybe can talk to your students about yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:58

But let's move on and let's talk maybe about your career, because that's where you are now. Bring us back to the beginning, because you were telling me before that you studied accounting originally.

Speaker 2: 12:07

That's correct. So I won't go right back to the day I was born because at that stage, or through my you know studies, I had no idea about well, no idea where I'd end up, and that's sort of something that you know, just happens to everyone. Some people find their interest and passion very early on and they move ahead, and others it takes longer to find, perhaps, their career path and where they really want to be and where they're perhaps best at. So, yeah, I started accounting at uni at Monash. Didn't really have a lot of idea what I wanted to do apart from perhaps accounting, so anyway, I did my accounting degree, got a job in a mid-tier chartered accounting firm, stayed there for about five years and did my PY.

Speaker 2: 13:02

Back then it was a professional year, oh, in accounting, in accounting. So with the well, it's their designation program.

Speaker 1: 13:11

Ah, okay, Like a CA CPA. Yeah, like a CA.

Speaker 2: 13:13

So to do it better was really gruelling and really tough and I think most people thought, said I'll do it once and that's it never again. So anyway. So I did that, moved into mid-tier chatter firm and sort of enjoyed it. I was doing auditing which everyone moves into, but then I found that I don't know, I was getting a bit tired of just sitting at a desk all day working with numbers, with auditing. There was a bit of people interaction and I was going out to visit, did audits on pubs and I'll never forget one where they said oh you need to do a stock take at a pub in Melbourne in Sydney Road, which is back then pretty rough, bit, dodgy Bit dodgy, so they said be there at nine o'clock sharp.

Speaker 2: 14:05

So okay, so I got there at about 10 to nine and we know what pubs are like pretty dead at nine o'clock, so anyway. So I got in there, no one around locked. I'm knocking on the door, no one knocking, knocking, knocking. Eventually some bloke peers out of the top window because it was double story. Yeah, you know the old days too, we used to have rooms at the top Living.

Speaker 1: 14:27

Still like that in the UK? Yeah, still like that, yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:29

So this bloke puts his head through the window, singlet beer gut sticking out, and says, you know, bends down. And I was only probably, you know, eight, well, probably 20, so, you know, fairly fresh out of uni, had no idea. What do you want? I'm going oh, I'm here for the audit, oh, what audit. And I said, oh, you know, I'm from this firm and I'm here for the audit, oh, what audit. And I said, oh, you know, I'm from this firm and I'm here to do the stock take, oh, you know. So there he is moaning and groaning, oh, you know. Oh, geez, you know, you've woken me up, I'll be down there soon. So half an hour later I'm standing up there and it's freezing cold. I look like I was sort of, you know, desperate for a drink at 9 o'clock in the morning, because you know everyone's looking at you, thinking you know, is that desperate Anyway, but it was.

Speaker 2: 15:21

so. That was my client interaction, which is a bit different than what you might have with financial planning. So anyway, I did that for five years. But then I and again that was my career, you know aspiration, but again just to sort of talk about where you, you never know where you might end up, I left and I thought what do I want to do? Do I want to move to another charter firm or accounting? I decided to leave and I went to La Trobe to do a dip ed.

Speaker 2: 15:48

And I thought I'd move into teaching to have that greater people interaction.

Speaker 1: 15:53

A bit more purpose.

Speaker 2: 15:56

Yeah, a bit more purpose, a bit more meaningful, and I thought that's all right, I can teach accounting. So, anyway, went and did a dip ed, which was a really enjoyable year, full-time, not having to work. Then went and taught accounting and business at a school in South Gippsland called Leangatha Okay, yeah, leangatha, nice place, really nice and was there for about two or three years. The kids there probably weren't as aspirational as perhaps what I was hoping. You know I was thinking, you know I'm going to be, you know, teaching the next CEOs and you know all that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2: 16:33

A lot of the boys just wanted to work on the farms or be motor mechanics and a lot of the girls traditionally hairdressing was the big thing back then, so not a lot of interest in accounting. But anyway, I stayed there for a few years, which was really interesting, and then a job came up. So how old were you at this point? Probably 25, probably five years, probably 26, 27. Yeah, and then by the time I was, and then a job came up to move into the university system. So probably by then I was about 30. Yeah, so a job came up at a university to teach accounting and tax. So I moved into the university system, which at that stage was a university then which merged with RMIT, and I was at RMIT for about 10 years teaching accounting.

Speaker 1: 17:22

So when you say teaching, is that lecturing? Yes, lecturing.

Speaker 2: 17:25

So similar to what I'm doing now, but it was in accounting and I was teaching accounting and tax.

Speaker 1: 17:32

So did you need a DIP deployment education to actually do that job?

Speaker 2: 17:38

No, At the time. At the time, no. So the DIP ed was required to teach, yeah. But then when I moved into the industry back then universities were a bit different. What they valued was people who obviously had a degree, teaching helped teaching, qualification to be able to teach students, but also industry experience. So the fact that I had had all three was fairly valuable. Industry experience is perhaps not so important anymore in terms of the university sector, it's more about qualifications and research. So, but just how I got into financial planning just quickly, I was teaching there, I left and again just to sort of talk about you never know where you end up I left RMIT, got a job in industry, but teaching, but working with a travel franchise as a finance manager, Okay. So completely different.

Speaker 3: 18:34

I just took a break.

Speaker 2: 18:35

Did something different again for about three years, visiting different travel agencies, helping them with their finances, so setting up some went broke, helping them to improve their financials, so like a more sort of corporate advisory type of role.

Speaker 2: 18:51

Yeah more corporate, but these were a lot of small businesses. So again, you know, helping small business, helping individuals who were perhaps good with travel but had no idea about financials. You know they barely knew what a profit and loss was. You know they could sell travel, but you know, you showed them a set of financials and they had no idea, and they had no idea how to run the business. And then, out of the blue, I got a call from a bloke at RMIT who said do you want to come back again? I said eh, and he said oh, we're setting up this new course in financial planning.

Speaker 1: 19:23

So can I ask what year this was? Because financial planning is a relatively new industry.

Speaker 2: 19:29

Yes, so this would have been. I suppose I'm just trying to think, probably in the 90s Okay. So early 90s? Yeah, probably in the 90s somewhere, yeah. So I said, what's financial planning? I had no idea because it was then. It really wasn't a profession, it was, you know, still an industry. There was no qualifications basically required back then. You might have just done a quick diploma. I think there might have been PG Practice Guide 146.

Speaker 1: 20:04

Okay, requirements which were a diploma level, if that at that stage, Because a lot of people that early days in financial planning came from selling insurance.

Speaker 2: 20:13

Yes, correct.

Speaker 2: 20:14

And then superannuation became a big thing, and that's when financial planning evolved, took off yes, rmit got into financial planning at a fairly early stage, so I think one of the first into financial planning. So I said I've got no idea what it is. And they said, oh, you'll be right, you know business and tax. So anyway, I jumped in and had no idea and for the first couple of years I battled, trying to learn what financial planning was all about, the knowledge, the skills, and that was the start of my entry into financial planning. So again, just for students listening, you never know where you might end up and some students find their career of choice straight away. Others it might take a while to find out what you're good at, what your passion and interest is. Yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:02

So just to touch on that, studied accounting worked in a mid-tier accounting firm, ordered at a pub out in Brunswick and some bloke didn't want to let you in because you woke him up. Yeah, so then… going back and do a diploma of education, to working as a teacher, to then working as a finance or a university. Finance role A finance role and then back into university. So it's been a bit of a yeah, it's a bit of a snake along the way. Yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 2: 21:33

I think most well, a lot of people are looking at you, know these days you have to be flexible and looking at you know perhaps what your goal is, what's the ideal situation you're trying to work towards. And some people get there early, some not, and yeah, it's just all these experiences. And then I was at RMIT, came back to RMIT, left, went to La Trobe where I, you know, happened, fortunate enough, to teach you, and then went into Deakin financial planning. But yeah, so different roles start off in accounting, which a lot of students do, and that's what we find.

Speaker 2: 22:09

A lot of students move into accounting initially because they do accounting at school and the trouble we've got is students don't do financial planning at school, so they have no idea what it is.

Speaker 1: 22:21

Is it possible to introduce financial planning in high school?

Speaker 2: 22:25

Well, it would be, and you could do it by way of financial literacy. So run a financial literacy program and some schools do, some schools, don't, you know? And quite often it's a canny teacher, right, you go and teach financial literacy or the careers teacher and they're going. Oh well, you know, there's no and there is some resource. Now the FAAA has put together a financial literacy pack which is more around for practitioners who want to go out to schools to talk to students about what financial literacy is to teach them early.

Speaker 2: 22:58

But you know, if you don't know what financial planning is, you're not going to come into uni jumping into financial planning.

Speaker 1: 23:08

And that's the. I guess the issue the industry has now is that people don't know what financial planning is, because only maybe top 10% of people get financial advice. Yeah, correct.

Speaker 2: 23:18

So, yeah, it's only those that have heard from friends or family, those who, perhaps parents, have got a financial advisor and they think, oh, this actually looks all right. And most of the students we get is, you know, they're doing an accounting degree or finance and again, at that age you don't know what to do quite often. And then you might have heard from a friend or you think, oh, I'll try financial planning as an elective. You move in and then suddenly, with a bit of luck, you know, you get this spark and you think this is exactly what I want to do. Yeah, and that's how we get a lot of our students who try financial planning because they don't know what it is and suddenly think, yeah, this is great because it combines finance with working closely with people and helping people, which is, you know, a lot of students love that aspect where it's finance but also helping people.

Speaker 1: 24:09

Yeah, and you must have seen some students become very successful in their career. What are the key attributes you see as students that you, I guess, helps to get them to a point where they have a very well, obviously, success is determined by many things, but you know successful career in terms of, maybe, leadership roles or running successful businesses.

Speaker 2: 24:32

So, as I said before, students mature at different stages. So you know one. There's one particular student that well, apart from you, another student that I had was probably slightly older, so I think he went and worked for a few years and then came back, so he might have been in his mid-20s, so perhaps a little bit older than an 18, 19-year-old, but he was great communication skills, he was confident, really personable, really nice bloke and he just fell into financial planning and, you know, enjoyed it and I knew he'd do well because he was just one of these people that really personable and would have been able to sit with a client basically from day one. And so I introduced him to a practice and I said, you know they were looking for someone and I said I've got the ideal person, Don't lose him because he's going to do really well.

Speaker 2: 25:30

And they did take him on and yeah and they said it's one of the best people they've ever had, because he just had that personal approach, loved working with people, was really good at it. So I think you just have to have passion and an interest. And you know it's the same as all of us. We only do it because we enjoy what we're doing. So you know we enjoy teaching or you enjoy working with different employees and students, helping them to, you know, find good careers and good recruits.

Speaker 2: 25:57

So finding a passion, which might take a little bit of time, you know, and I've been in and out different unis, different sort of jobs, until what I've got now, the confidence and communication skills and, as you said, the ability to network. And again, networking is hard and you know it's required in all jobs. My brother is sort of a partner in an accounting firm but even at his level to move ahead and become sort of like a managing partner, he's required to do networking. So you just have to go out and you have to be able to sell yourself to an employer or to clients and it never goes away. It's always there, at whatever level. So you may not find it easy always, but the key thing is get out there to as many events as you can talk to as many people. Network, build up that confidence, build up that interest and something will come along.

Speaker 1: 26:58

Your network is your net worth.

Speaker 2: 27:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's the same even for those who are looking at you know, perhaps other related professions? It's networking. It's you know. Whether you're in accounting law, financial planning, you know your success is based on your networks.

Speaker 1: 27:16

Yeah, and I've been in very technical roles and very much relationship-focused roles and I've found that the most successful people I've been able to engage with have had the best networking skills and relationship skills. Yeah, Not always the best technical skills, but you know, top-tier relationship skills.

Speaker 2: 27:34

That's correct. I mean the knowledge you need both to be you know really good. But the key traits that I see and one of the best financial planners that I've come across was because I worked in my own practice in financial planning for about 15 years, so I was sort of teaching and running my own financial planning practice. But one of the best financial planners I know was my licensee whose name was Darren Borg, One of the best financial planners. He was an ex-teacher so he had the ability to relate to people really great, but you know he could. He was a great networker. Ability to relate to any client, whether they were a butcher you know tradie or a surgeon. He could just relate to any client, whether they were a butcher you know tradie or a surgeon. He could just relate to any person. Knowledge was good but his communication skills and ability to relate to people were excellent and that's what made him so successful and so good.

Speaker 1: 28:35

I'm mindful of time Mark, because we've been speaking for 27 minutes now.

Speaker 2: 28:38

It's been great and I've really loved it.

Speaker 1: 28:41

So a big thank you for coming on the Finance Friends podcast and, yeah, it's been a pleasure knowing you over the last. What is it? 16 or more, maybe 18 years now? So thank you, and you've made a massive contribution to the industry financial planning industry.

Speaker 2: 28:57

So well done and thanks very much for the invitation and yeah, it's been interesting. And, as much as I'd like to talk for a couple of hours, I've got a class early afternoon, so yeah, so life as an academic goes on and it stops.

Speaker 1: 29:12

No, thank you, and I appreciate your time. All right, thanks very much.

Speaker 3: 29:19

Disclaimer this podcast exists for informational and entertainment purposes only. The personal opinions of the speaker and guests do not represent the view of any other party. If this recording contains reference to financial products, that reference does not constitute advice nor recommendations and may not be relied upon.